So I Bought A Smokerlyzer

[tjmitch]

That is what I was thinking TJ ... it appears the level is the same but that wouldn't matter bc as it cooks it rises so the more tobacco = the quicker and higher the tobacco rises, causing the effect that we wouldn't want.

So it seems too over packed and too under packed both result in the same high CO levels, but a happy medium = win.

Interesting, so the co levels vs tobacco density are a parabolic relationship? Like packing 48g in the medium gave higher CO than 50g?

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45g was just as bad as 55g in the medium but 50g was very low CO results. So you need enough tobacco for the CO to be absorbed in the tobacco it seems? But with too little it gets through the tobacco and into the spire too easily and too much clogs the air flow of the charcoal.

That's interesting. That's not what I would expect. I would expect that it would be level until the "optimum" and then to increase linearly up to the maximum.

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[mattarios2]

Yeah I know what you mean but when you think about it, the less tobacco the more heat you need at least w nakhla, nakhla likes to be somewhat close to the coals. So when there isn't enough tobacco you need more heat which makes the ratio of coal to tobacco lower which would mean more CO production to less tobacco which means less consumption of CO.

It seems more tobacco = more STUFF the CO has to go through so the more likely it is to get stuck. Just like how a bigger pipe/bigger hose/bigger vase etc = less CO. But when there is too much tobacco it kills the air flow for the coals which = more CO.

[Hassouni]

Hm, any clever way to measure water in a Turkish bowl? Maybe block the holes?

[mattarios2]

I have done it ... saran wrap is your friend Hass.

[Codyb88]

So today I think I got co poisoning so I may limit myself on hookah soon. Had a weird headache not sharp but just lingering and weird feeling in my chest. I think I'll be looking into vaping in general and more often and hookah as maybe a few times a week thing. Strangely enough after I started working out at the gym I felt much better. Edited May 7, 2014 by Codyb88

[mattarios2]

It also appears that using more coal centered in the middle of the phunnel trench is better than using less coal that is closer to the spire.

I get much lower readings when I start w 6 japanese charcoal on a medium further away from the spire vs 5 japanese coal on a medium closer to the spire.

[mattarios2]

The above post may be f'ing with my results with the more tobacco and too little of tobacco raising CO levels. I will test this in time ...

[Hassouni]

I have done it ... saran wrap is your friend Hass.

 

So what's the recommended amt for the "small" (ha!) Turkish bowls?

[mattarios2]

Well the amount may not matter as much as I thought, it may be the coal placement that is messing with my results as stated above, I will be testing that out tomorrow.

As for amount in the Turkish bowls, my medium was 37g of tobacco. I didn't measure the small but it wouldn't matter anyways b/c they are all different sizes.

[Stuie]

John planning on testing between foil, screen, and nothing?

[mattarios2]

John planning on testing between foil, screen, and nothing?

At some point, yes. Still trying to test amount of tobacco in bowls, and a few other things. The first couple bowls I had in the medium phunnel yielded amazingly good results compared to smaller bowls and now the last 3 mediums have yielded similar results to smaller bowls, I am struggling to figure out what I first did with the mediums that made the numbers so low. Recently I have been testing with more tobacco in the bowls so tonight I am going to go back to the normal amount in the medium with my usual setup and see what happens.

[Philmatic]

Did anyone even read the Abstract of the study that mattarios2 posted?
 

In a single-blind, crossover design, 12 healthy smokers inhaled CO at 1,200 ppm to 1,500 ppm to simulate CO intake from cigarette smoking, inhaled air on a similar schedule and smoked 20 cigarettes per day, each for seven days.

 
Source: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0735109701016163
 
Also, from this CDC study:
 

It has been stated that a 1-hour exposure to 1,000 to 1,200 ppm would cause unpleasant but no dangerous symptoms, but that 1,500 to 2,000 ppm might be a dangerous concentration after 1 hour [Henderson et al. 1921a, 1921b]. In general, a carboxyhemoglobin (COHb) level of 10-20% will only cause slight headaches [NIOSH 1972] and a COHb of 11-13% will have no effect on hand and foot reaction time, hand steadiness, or coordination [Stewart and Peterson 1970]. At a COHb of 35%, manual dexterity is impaired [Stewart 1975]. At 40% COHb, mental confusion, added to increasing incoordination, precludes driving an automobile [Stewart 1975]. A 30-minute exposure to 1,200 ppm will produce a COHb of 10-13% [NIOSH 1972].

 
Source: http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/idlh/630080.html
 
Additionally, the EPA has set the US EPA's national ambient air quality standard at 35 ppm for exposures up to 1-hour, and 9 ppm for 8 hours, those are averages. Would that suggest that even with the coconut coals in the first "study" we are hovering around the upper end of what the EPA considers safe in daily life/work situations? The second study I cited suggest that even an exposure of 1000-1200ppm would "cause unpleasant but no dangerous symptoms"
 
Are we talking about the same measurement for ppm? Is the OP misinterpreting the results?

[Chreees]

Good point, Philmatic... John?


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[mattarios2]

When studies state no dangerous symptoms etc they are talking about IMMEDIATE danger ... like death, or unconsciousness ... no matter what the levels are, if they are elevated it puts stess on your heart and vital organs, SIMPLE AS THAT!

 

Everyone here needs to just give in to the fact that CO IS BAD mmmk. If you are ok with it, awesome, keep puffing, I on the other hand am not ok with it, so I have been doing various tests as you all know, I ordered a few larges to see if the numbers can go down even more. So far I have gotten numbers as low as 23 after 40 hits with a medium phunnel, with sminis the best I could get to is around 37. Forget about minis and smaller, the numbers go up waaaaay to fast. So if a large can decrease the numbers even 20% compared to a medium, we would be in business. If I could stay in the 20's by the end of the night I would be A OK with that. But when you start getting into the 40's-50's after 40 hits, that is very alarming to me.

 

As I said, don't only go off my information, in my experience if you don't work out #'s are more than double what mine are. I tested another friend last night he was at 81 ppm by the end of the night. That is a COHB of 13%, that means 13% of your blood is not functioning properly.

 

My younger brother (he's 20) works out 4 times a week, and he blew a 29, I blew a 30 last night with our test setup. So it appears every single person I test who works out has numbers similar to all others who work out. Those who do not work out clearly have double to triple the levels of the people who work out.

 

The only point I am trying to make is that I smoke with a few people always, usually a total of 4 including me. And we still see these insane numbers. If you smoke alone, and for 3-4 hours at a time I warn you to be careful, if you don't care, then no worries, but if you do care I suggest you cut back no the hookah smoking.

 

0-10 is considered normal range 10-20 is light smoker 20-30 is heavy smoker (2-3 packs a day) With a small bowl, small hookah setup, and huffing on the hookah alone ... I would NOT want to know the numbers.

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On a side note, I have found that when packing the edges of the bowl nice and tight, numbers have decreased ... seems like whenever there are gaps in the bowl, it yields higher numbers than when the bowl is packed evenly and no gaps. SO it appears tobaccos like Nakhla and Tangiers that benefit from a dense pack yield lower CO levels than tobacco that needs a light fluff pack like AF, DM, Starbuzz, Haze, etc.

[mattarios2]

Also, exposure to 1000ppm is what the study says. My study is testing our ACTUAL PPM in the blood.

 

SO for example, there might be 1000ppm of CO in the smoke, but depending on a ton of variables you only take in X amount. My testing is showing that the bigger the bowl the lower amounts of CO in the smoke since my blood levels are lower with bigger bowls.

 

So the study you cited is stating a person sitting in a room EXPOSED to air with 1000ppm in the air.

 

My study is, how much CO is actually in my blood from smoking.

 

So they are 2 totally different things. If your blood CO was (cohb) was 1000, you would be dead.

[Philmatic]

Also, exposure to 1000ppm is what the study says. My study is testing our ACTUAL PPM in the blood.

 

SO for example, there might be 1000ppm of CO in the smoke, but depending on a ton of variables you only take in X amount. My testing is showing that the bigger the bowl the lower amounts of CO in the smoke since my blood levels are lower with bigger bowls.

 

So the study you cited is stating a person sitting in a room EXPOSED to air with 1000ppm in the air.

 

My study is, how much CO is actually in my blood from smoking.

 

So they are 2 totally different things. If your blood CO was (cohb) was 1000, you would be dead.

 

That works for me, thanks! I wasn't questioning your intent, just the numbers.

[mattarios2]

 

Also, exposure to 1000ppm is what the study says. My study is testing our ACTUAL PPM in the blood.

 

SO for example, there might be 1000ppm of CO in the smoke, but depending on a ton of variables you only take in X amount. My testing is showing that the bigger the bowl the lower amounts of CO in the smoke since my blood levels are lower with bigger bowls.

 

So the study you cited is stating a person sitting in a room EXPOSED to air with 1000ppm in the air.

 

My study is, how much CO is actually in my blood from smoking.

 

So they are 2 totally different things. If your blood CO was (cohb) was 1000, you would be dead.

 

That works for me, thanks! I wasn't questioning your intent, just the numbers.

 

 

No worries, I know what you were trying to say.

[chromecarz00]

Howdy, just found this thread. Big ups to you doing this, it's really great to find some hard data to examine this hookah experience thoroughly. Couple of things I wanted to note (I've read every page so I apologize if I missed something);

 

a) I feel as though your readings would be noticeably lower if you moved to an outdoor area. Re-inhaling secondhand smoke will surely raise your PPM as it's not just the initial hit, but repeatedly inhaling that smoke that you've had as well. The way I think of it is similar to the radioactive half-life decay curve - initial hit is the main intake, then it's the gift that keeps on giving until it levels out. I'd love to see your results in that condition.

 

b) Where do you light your coals? Is it in the same space as you smoke in?

 

c) Do you use the same flavor and batch of shisha everytime?

 

Thanks again for taking the effort in doing this, it's a great step forward. 

[chromecarz00]

Oh and I saw that you were looking for a way to get the coals to not turn black, try the flip bowl: http://www.hookah-shisha.com/store/pc/catalog/Hookah-Flip-Bowl-Silver-L.jpg?pIdProduct=9939

Built one and had decent results, have heard good things as well. Just thoughts.

[mattarios2]

Howdy, just found this thread. Big ups to you doing this, it's really great to find some hard data to examine this hookah experience thoroughly. Couple of things I wanted to note (I've read every page so I apologize if I missed something);

 

a) I feel as though your readings would be noticeably lower if you moved to an outdoor area. Re-inhaling secondhand smoke will surely raise your PPM as it's not just the initial hit, but repeatedly inhaling that smoke that you've had as well. The way I think of it is similar to the radioactive half-life decay curve - initial hit is the main intake, then it's the gift that keeps on giving until it levels out. I'd love to see your results in that condition.

 

B) Where do you light your coals? Is it in the same space as you smoke in?

 

c) Do you use the same flavor and batch of shisha everytime?

 

Thanks again for taking the effort in doing this, it's a great step forward. 

 

I will be trying the smoking outside to see how it varies.

 

I light coals in my bulkhead in the basement and I smoke in the basement. You cannot smell the coal at all in the basement. I have also tested my CO before and after lighting and CO stays the same.

 

I keep 3 windows and the bulkhead wide open to let air into the basement, very little smoke is stagnant in my basement.

 

I use all mizo flavors, rotating between 3 right now to keep it consistent. All mizo seem to give similar results, no consistent data that could prove a different flavor gives higher or lower numbers than another flavor.

 

Oh and I saw that you were looking for a way to get the coals to not turn black, try the flip bowl: http://www.hookah-shisha.com/store/pc/catalog/Hookah-Flip-Bowl-Silver-L.jpg?pIdProduct=9939

Built one and had decent results, have heard good things as well. Just thoughts.

 

The flip bowl will raise CO levels because it deprives the coals of oxygen.

[mattarios2]

Would it make sense to state the following:

 

CO Levels are lower when less people smoke the same hookah (assuming your hits per minute or per hour are the same with less people or more people) because when less people hit the hookah you don't need to keep putting coals on because the coals last longer?

 

I am finding when I smoke with 3 people vs 6 people, the 3 person hookah yields lower CO levels because I add less charcoal every x amount of minutes because less people are hitting it.

 

Thoughts?

[mattarios2]

The answer is yes, absolutely. The more charcoal you go through obviously the more CO. So it appears fresh coal has much more CO than coal that is halfway used or dead.

 

Instead of dropping off the smaller pieces I kept them on and used 1 coal added to the bowl when heat was needed instead of taking off the little guys and adding 2 coals and I have brought my numbers down big time.

 

Taking 11 sessions and averaging out the CO in PPM, it is 36.5 after 40 hits with dropping small coals and adding an extra fresh coal.

 

With keeping the really small pieces on and adding 1 less charcoal every time I need heat I have registered 28 on the first test, and then 26 tonight on the second test with even better management so = 26% decrease. This is all with a 50g phunnel bowl.

 

So a typical reading with coconut coal is the following

 

15 hits = 15ppm

27 hits = 23ppm

40 hits = 38ppm

 

give or take

 

with Japanese I am reading

 

15 hits = 11ppm

27 hits = 20ppm

40 hits = 26ppm

 

this is all with a 50g phunnel, elmas hose, elmas kafesli, semi cold water.

 

I will be testing with a diffuser and ice cold water as well to see if that changes anything.

 

Anyone got a diffuser they want to send me :-) ?

[DrSmokes]

 

Anyone got a diffuser they want to send me :-) ?

I made mine out of a thick highlighter cap :)

 

I'm wondering if there is something we can put in the water that could turn CO into CO2...I wish I remembered my chemistry better.

[Hassouni]

Another Oxygen?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:rolleyes:

[mattarios2]

Just talked to my brother about the water situation and he studies chemistry, and it left him stumped.

 

That article that talks about CEA levels with hookah smokers being really low stated that they felt there could be a solution or something to add to the water to reduce CO, meh, which Eric could be around more.