PersianPride Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Well actually the term 'shisha' is Persian for 'glass' and is a word that has been adopted by Arabs to refer to a water pipe. I can only speculate but more then likely when the water pipe was introduced to the Arabs for the first time by Persian traders it was chosen as the new term for the new device because it was the catchiest name. So it is a little pointless to criticize Americans for using the term 'shisha' to refer to water pipe tobacco since the same process that occurred with the Arabs centuries ago is occurring now. The Americans/Westerners were introduced to a new invention and chose the catchiest term to refer to it. The water pipe's evolution in every country/culture has been unique and the Americans have simply developed their own culture regarding it. I personally refer to it as ghalyun or nargile but just as I am not going to demand that you stop referring to it as simply 'glass' I'm not going to ask westerners to change their popular name for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mo Posted October 25, 2006 Author Share Posted October 25, 2006 Sanguine is just bitter because I'm right but he had to say something against me (as was from the previous tangiers thread). I'm not universally offensive and some people handle it, some don't. It's not something serious. Now, being American is no excuse, so can you guys stop mentioning this. I'm British but it doesn't mean I use it to justify a silly remark I'm British so I can be arrogant Shisha is the Hookah, and not the tobacco. If you disagree then give reasons, and don't blame 'being american'. Otherwise let others voice their opinions. Sanguine already stated he doesn't agree with you by agreeing with my correct statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SanguineSolitude Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Im not arguing with you. My point, which you seem to have missed, is that things can be called by different names different places. For example, when i was in poland, i would stop at stands to get a kebab, that being ground meat pressed into a large block and shaved, put in pita bread with some fixins and folded in half. In the US we call those same things Gyros. Are all americans who call them Gyros wrong because they were Kebabs in Poland? perhaps, but to be honest one Polish mans opinion on the subject(much like one arabic speaking man's on shisha) doesnt really change anything. He may be correct, but the fact that it is in common useage in America tends to validate the opinions of the americans who use it. Im not attacking you and not even neccessarily disagreeing, If i wish to be culturally correct i will call it muassel. If i wish to be understood by hookah smokers in America i will call it shisha. I'm not sure what you're point was, since your response was rather erratic and managed to avoid addressing my points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey32b Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Languages evolve over time. Somehow, in the English language, the word shisha became synonymous to hookah tobacco. I believe that if it is understood to have a certain meaning, than it is the proper word in the language. According to dictionary.com a word is: a unit of language, consisting of one or more spoken sounds or their written representation, that functions as a principal carrier of meaning. Based on this definition, the word shisha functions as the principal carrier of meaning for hookah tobacco. Whether we got to this word incorrectly or not is irrelevant. The word shisha has a meaning to many people of meaning hookah tobacco. So actually, in the English language, I believe you would be incorrect to say that shisha is not the right word to use for hookah tobacco. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mo Posted October 25, 2006 Author Share Posted October 25, 2006 [quote name='PersianPride']Well actually the term 'shisha' is Persian for 'glass' and is a word that has been adopted by Arabs to refer to a water pipe. I can only speculate but more then likely when the water pipe was introduced to the Arabs for the first time by Persian traders it was chosen as the new term for the new device because it was the catchiest name. So it is a little pointless to criticize Americans for using the term 'shisha' to refer to water pipe tobacco since the same process that occurred with the Arabs centuries ago is occurring now. The Americans/Westerners were introduced to a new invention and chose the catchiest term to refer to it. The water pipe's evolution in every country/culture has been unique and the Americans have simply developed their own culture regarding it. I personally refer to it as ghalyun or nargile but just as I am not going to demand that you stop referring to it as simply 'glass' I'm not going to ask westerners to change their popular name for it.[/quote] Some Arabs call it a shisha, the official word is narghile which is what you'll find in a dictionary. Regardless, it is not 'americanised' to call the tobacco 'shisha'. It is simply not knowing what it is referring to. Why has this become an America thing?? Many Americans call the Hookah a Shisha. Americans who are not so sure will make mistakes. to summarise this thread Albab and LB argued that arabs used shisha to refer to the tobacco when evidence shows otherwise (such as labelling on packages, root of word, arab countries etc) Xpimp thinks anyone can call anything what they want. Sanguine agrees with me but feels like insulting me Persianguy thinks Americans can do what they like because they are america, despite the fact he knows what a shisha is. Sure are a variety of views on here. Now, in conclusion, unless you think America should call anything what they like, because apparantly this is an 'america' thing, a Shisha, is in fact the term for a 'hookah' or 'water pipe' the tobacco, is NOT shisha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cymptom Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 It may well be that shisha is the "correct" Arabic term for the pipe -- I don't know much about Arabic or its dialects so I don't really know. It seems a little besides the point though... it seems that you made this thread to tell people that if they call hookah tobacco "shisha," they're wrong. This is simply ethnocentrism. You're talking about the difference between two languages and cultures here, and I hope I don't need to tell you that you can't simply call one wrong and one right. "Shisha" is a term widely used in the US to refer to hookah tobacco, very rarely referring to the actual pipe. Anybody who calls the pipe a "shisha" is likely to be misunderstood -- though I highly doubt that many would tell them that they are wrong, given they explain the language difference. You can't simply declare that "m3assal" is [i]the[/i] "correct" term for the tobacco just because hookah smoking is largely a product of Arabic cultures... there are no such universalities in reality, and arguing otherwise makes you look like a supremacist (though I'm not saying that's the case.) And I hate to sound like a jerk, but I have to point out the parallel between this thread and the other one you started about Tangiers. As I said or implied in the other thread, you seem overly motivated by the desire to sound authoritative. I'm sure I'm not the only one to get the impression that you created this thread not to kindly inform people of something, but rather to tell people that they are wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mo Posted October 25, 2006 Author Share Posted October 25, 2006 Many Many americans call the pipes 'shishas' as well as 'hookahs'. Many Many Americans do NOT refer to the tobaccos as 'shisha' and MANY MANY AMERICANS AGREE WITH THIS. I really hate to see you guys in school, because you really cannot admit something as straightforward as this. It has never changed. Americans call it the correct thing, but some say it incorrectly. Nothing to do with evolution of language. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SanguineSolitude Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Im not saying we can call it what we want because we are americans. Im not making this an american thing. I am saying that in American English words may have different meanings than they do in other languages. Have i insulted you at all? if anything youve been attacking me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
entrailsgalore Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Well in every language there are different dilects. pants=trousers. Car=Vehicle. So I can see how Shisha could mean the massall AND the pipe. I believe that when people call tobacco "Shisha" it is a slang term which is short for " Shisha Tobacco" which is the tobacco of the shisha pipe. But as far as Im concerned there are a million ways to say the same thing, so I do think shisha can mean booth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mo Posted October 25, 2006 Author Share Posted October 25, 2006 [quote name='cymptom']And I hate to sound like a jerk, but I have to point out the parallel between this thread and the other one you started about Tangiers. As I said or implied in the other thread, you seem overly motivated by the desire to sound authoritative. I'm sure I'm not the only one to get the impression that you created this thread not to kindly inform people of something, but rather to tell people that they are wrong.[/quote] There is no motivation to be authoritative. As with the Tangiers thread, there are a few people who feel threatened when someone is critical of something they believe. We're talking 3 or 4 people who want to be defenders to the death of a point no matter how flawed the basis is. Heck, we've got people here justifying the incorrect usage of the word simply because they say it wrongly, when the word is defined and exists fine. Your post is similar to Sanguines in that you wish to score some internet points by trying to focus on my posting style, rather than the merits of your post, of which there are none. My intial post is fine, if it is offensive, then the mods can delete it. If you wish to dispute feel free, but I have not become personal with anyone. I have also substantiated why it is ignorant to call the tobacco shisha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mo Posted October 25, 2006 Author Share Posted October 25, 2006 [quote name='entrailsgalore']Well in every language there are different dilects. pants=trousers. Car=Vehicle. So I can see how Shisha could mean the massall AND the pipe. I believe that when people call tobacco "Shisha" it is a slang term which is short for " Shisha Tobacco" which is the tobacco of the shisha pipe. But as far as Im concerned there are a million ways to say the same thing, so I do think shisha can mean booth.[/quote] There is no dispute here. You are using the word for Shisha in the correct context. some people do it incorrectly. If it is a slang term which is short for 'shisha tobacco' then my point is still valid. The only way my point is invalid, is if Shisha in America is used solely to refer to the tobacco. There is no different dialects, it is not like Pants = trousers its more like milk = milk but some people say cows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
entrailsgalore Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Well Ive never run into an american who reffered to either by shisha. Most people I know, or people in my area just called it a hookah or call the tobacco hookah tobacco. I think the " Hookah" is the unoffical term of the west I guess. But I see tons of sites reffer to the tobacco as shisha, so I dont know if they are calling it shisha, or using the term as slang for shisha tobacco. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mo Posted October 25, 2006 Author Share Posted October 25, 2006 I really hate to break it to you guys. There is really no debate in this, it is amazing really and the fact you bring culture and USA into it really is beyond belief. I'll break it down now. I have been too kind to some of the ignorant. ANYONE who believes that calling the tobacco 'shisha' is correct, should agree that if I call them an idiot, it is my right as an Englishman. after all, Idiot can become synonymous with their name just check : [url="http://www.hookahculture.com/"]http://www.hookahculture.com/[/url] or wikipedia or any random site and you'll see that the ignorant are really in a minority, along with those people that simply want to argue for the hell of it. Stop being these random bandits that are raping the true meaning of a word, and use your keyboard to do some amateur research. Now back to the topic. Shisha refers to the Hookah, and not the tobacco. If anyone says differently, then I suggest you explain it to them If they still disagree, then show them to [b]some[/b] of the members of this site, because they'll get along just fine in blissful ignorance, because being American gives you the right to apparantly change the meaning of a word, when most american sites/literature suggests otherwise. Seriously, this must be intentional, as surely people cannot be this willing to argue a point with NO BASIS whatsoever. Just do me a favour and read around, otherwise accept that when I call you ignorant, you are deserving of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey32b Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 [quote name='King Mo'] The only way my point is invalid, is if Shisha in America is used solely to refer to the tobacco.[/quote] This is where I think you're wrong. It doesn't have to be solely used as one meaning to be the correct word. The same word can have different meanings to different people. I would say just as many people say shisha as they do maasal. Outside of this forum, I know nobody who uses the word maasal. Everyone calls it shisha. When I say the word maasal, people don't know what I'm talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mo Posted October 25, 2006 Author Share Posted October 25, 2006 [quote name='Joey32b'][quote name='King Mo'] The only way my point is invalid, is if Shisha in America is used solely to refer to the tobacco.[/quote] This is where I think you're wrong. It doesn't have to be solely used as one meaning to be the correct word. The same word can have different meanings to different people. I would say just as many people say shisha as they do maasal. Outside of this forum, I know nobody who uses the word maasal. Everyone calls it shisha. When I say the word maasal, people don't know what I'm talking about.[/quote] you don't need to use maasael. Just read the box of any tobacco purchase you buy, it'll say 'tobacco' on it. Now read above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mo Posted October 25, 2006 Author Share Posted October 25, 2006 to quote the american site 'www.hookahculture.com' simply to illustrate a point [quote]Often, people call the tobacco "shisha" and this is TOTALLY INCORRECT![/quote] you will find most evidence substantiates what I'm saying. The best evidence you'll find substantiating what you are saying is simply 'hot air'. incidentally, if people refer to the tobacco as shisha, they may be doing so to avoid classification as tobacco for tax, charges etc. I don't mind it in this case, as clearly it has to be done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilqueToast Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 [quote name='King Mo']I really hate to break it to you guys. There is really no debate in this, it is amazing really and the fact you bring culture and USA into it really is beyond belief. I'll break it down now. I have been too kind to some of the ignorant. ANYONE who believes that calling the tobacco 'shisha' is correct, should agree that if I call them an idiot, it is my right as an Englishman. after all, Idiot can become synonymous with their name just check : [url="http://www.hookahculture.com/"]http://www.hookahculture.com/[/url] or wikipedia or any random site and you'll see that the ignorant are really in a minority, along with those people that simply want to argue for the hell of it. Stop being these random bandits that are raping the true meaning of a word, and use your keyboard to do some amateur research. Now back to the topic. Shisha refers to the Hookah, and not the tobacco. If anyone says differently, then I suggest you explain it to them If they still disagree, then show them to [b]some[/b] of the members of this site, because they'll get along just fine in blissful ignorance, because being American gives you the right to apparantly change the meaning of a word, when most american sites/literature suggests otherwise. Seriously, this must be intentional, as surely people cannot be this willing to argue a point with NO BASIS whatsoever. Just do me a favour and read around, otherwise accept that when I call you ignorant, you are deserving of it.[/quote] Is there a reason you're being a d-bag or is it just part of your character? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cymptom Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 To follow up on what entrails said: if you refer to hookah tobacco as "m3assal" in the US, it's very likely you will not be understood. Those who understand "shisha" as referring to the pipe and "m3assal" as referring to the tobacco have likely done some investigation of the hookah as a cultural item, but these people are not necessarily the "right" ones. It is not "wrong" to smoke hookah in ignorance of its cultural origins. [quote name='King Mo']There is no motivation to be authoritative.[/quote] You've got a strong argument there... but I really can't see any other motivation to so adamantly argue over the correctness of one term over the other even when the terms you argue against already have widely established connotations in the US. Nobody is saying the Arabic is wrong, or that the English is right -- these are terms that don't work when you're talking about differences in language that are linked to cultural context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey32b Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Believe me, I know that the term shisha is incorrect. I, personally, use the word maasal. I think the base of your argument is correct, but my argument is that use of words in language determine their meaning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xpimpitox Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 [quote name='King Mo']Xpimp thinks anyone can call anything what they want.[/quote] its funny how you jump to conclusions about people. just because my good friend calls it hooks, does that mean i should burn him at the stake like a witch? i dont think so. people can call somethin whatever they want its a free country. the truly ignorant one is you. i have stated i have heard both sides of the fence. i learned about 3 years ago that shisha really means pipe but i like to refer it to the general activity which is smoking hookah. im not gonna sit there and correct each and every person because they want to refer the tobacco as shisha. seriously who the hell cares? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
entrailsgalore Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Well I checked the hookah wiki and this is what it says. " Shisha is: * synonymous with hookah, or, by synecdoche, the flavored tobacco used therein" So it says shisha can be used to refer to either the pipe or the tobacco. And I think when it comes down to it launguage is relative to your area. If in the middle east they call the pipes shisha's then it is correct for that area. In other countries some people know the tobacco as shisha, so in that area It could be correct. I dont think there is only one correct way to say something. In some places soda is called pop, and in other places it is called cola. But which is the " correct" way to say it? I dont think there really is. But you could be correct, I dont know alot baout arabic but in that launguage shisha could mean the pipe not the tobacco. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Abides Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Shisha, hookah, m3assel, etc... Big. Fuckin'. Deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DizzyGuy Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Correct or not... In my normal conversations, when I meantion shisha and am talking about tobacco... I'm completely understood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikellen Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 King Mo- You have risen yourself above everyone. You have effectively stroked your ego to the point that we must all bow down to you and give you the courtesy reach-around when we see you. I will make sure that if I ever see you that I will praise your all-mighty knowledge as you have obviously proven yourself as the master of obscure Arabic technicalities that honestly, 95% of people don't give a sh#t about. I hope you are happy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SanguineSolitude Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 ikellen thats not really fair. theres nothing wrong with wanting to beat off while looking at onesself in the mirror. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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