Hey what gives....('Shisha is the pipe NOT the tobacco')

[PersianPride]

Why was the 'Shisha is the pipe NOT the tobacco' thread locked? Some people were having a legitimate discussion about linguistics, wouldn't it have been more appropriate to delete the posts were people made insults such as 'd-bag' rather then stopping the whole process?
Either way I just wanted to say to KingMo that the term 'narghile' is also a Persian word meaning 'coconut' and likely links back to the fact that some of the first water pipes introduced to the arabs were primitive Indian models made from coconuts.

Personally I don't see any practical point to replacing a western misinterpretation with an arabic one. At the end of the day a word's meaning is mainly dependent on the context that it is used.

[Joseph]

Yeah, in britian people use many expressions that would make no sense in America, like some others pointed out. In the USA Shisha means hookah tobacco, This is the primary word used by everyone I know. In the middle east the expression may be differant. Just like you pointed out, the hookah is known by many names in differant locations, the tobacco is known by many names in differant areas, and it is called shisha in the USA.

[MilqueToast]

I said "acting like..." by the by, and I stand by it.

Also, that was not the first insult, or should our ignorance just be accepted?

[PersianPride]

[quote name='MilqueToast']I said "acting like..." by the by, and I stand by it.  

Also, that was not the first insult, or should our ignorance just be accepted?[/quote]

Wasn't trying to single you out milque but my point was that people should have been warned to restrained themselves or offending posts should have been deleted before a complete lock down.

[Joseph]

Also, the Al Waha box says Al Waha Mollasses. Mollasses is a by product of sugar refinement, and Al Waha does not have a drop of molasses in it. Yet they still call the product Mollasses. This is deffinitley INCORRECT. The makers of al waha must be ignorant by King Mo's definition. Words mean differant things in differant countries in differant contexts. In the MAJORITY of the USA Shisha refers to the tobacco put in the pipe, most commenly known as a hookah.

[PersianPride]

[quote name='Joseph']Yeah, in britian people use many expressions that would make no sense in America, like some others pointed out.  In the USA Shisha means hookah tobacco,  This is the primary word used by everyone I know.  In the middle east the expression may be differant.  Just like you pointed out, the hookah is known by many names in differant locations, the tobacco is known by many names in differant areas, and it is called shisha in the USA.[/quote]

In the end it doesn't really effect the flow of conversation. A while ago I talked to some guy from Fiji that referred to a hookah as hubble bubble after a 20 second chat about what he meant by hubble bubble the conversation continued as normal.

[EvansLight]

Persian; the topic has been locked because the topic got out of hand and there was alot of name calling and down right mis behaving, on all sides of the topic, even after Yash warned he would lock the topic if it continued.

[Joseph]

Exactly, PP, "hubble bubble" is probably not the origenal word for the device, but it is correct where he is from. Shisha may not be the origenal word for the tobacco, but in America the meaning has evolved, like ALL LANGUAGE DOES. Now, in America, shisha means the tobacco that goes in the hookah.

[PersianPride]

[quote name='EvansLight']Persian; the topic has been locked because the topic got out of hand and there was alot of name calling and down right mis behaving, on all sides of the topic, even after Yash warned he would lock the topic if it continued.[/quote]

True there was some hostility..... I blame todays rock and roll music. Either way I wouldn't mind discussing the topic with Mo a little more if thats ok?

[EvansLight]

well for now the topic will stay locked. once the moderators and admins have talked it over and decided what action to take, well let ya know

[PersianPride]

[quote name='EvansLight']well for now the topic will stay locked. once the moderators and admins have talked it over and decided what action to take, well let ya know [/quote]

No I meant in this secondary thread

[EvansLight]

for now i would just wait. We also might move this discussion to serious disscusion forum. So for now, as yash said, just take some time, cool off, and wait till the mods talk it out. It should give everyone time to get some sleep, smoke some hookah, and calm down a bit

[yashman19]

Yes I meant no offense to King Mo for deleting his thread, or to anyone who was legitimtely enjoying the content of the thread. But many people were also not too happy, and rules were being broke. So I closed it for the time being.

Like I said, please forgive me, I just wanted to quell the rage that was getting out of control. Like EL said, we'll let Mushrat and Tangiers review the thread, and decide on what to do with it. It might be in the best interest of the forum to drop the subject or atleast move it to the serious section. That way people who are interested in a good debate can still access the thread if they choose. And for those who don't, it will be out of the main hookah section.

[xpimpitox]

i support yash for lockin the thread. although the warning was because i added a few words of vulagarity. the namecalling was uncalled for to begin with (i didnt throw the first insult for the record) the ignorance just got out of hand (im not pointing my finger in any particular direction). it was an interesting debate to say the least but damn i guess some people find bliss in ignorance.

[King Mo]

I vote for it to be reopened.

Everyone who responded with a fine attitude was dealt with respectfully.

Anyone who went crazy like xpimp and a few others like milquetoast who simply want to resort to childish name-calling, were ignored or decimated.

Xpimp, Milquetoast, Sanguine in particular ruined the thread. If they cannot handle a discussion, then they didn't have to post.

My suggestion is to remove the posts of anyone who didn't respond to the thread constructively, and if they got personal, give them an adequate warning.

Nobody is forced to give a personal insult.

As for PersianPride, the word Shisha itself is used in the correct context. Most people who wish to learn about it, will ask what a 'shisha' is. To explain it to them correctly is to say it is the hookah. If you want to misguide them, you'd say 'Shisha is the tobacco, or Shisha can mean tobacco or hookah'

Now, simply because some people do not know this, you can't simply change the meaning of a word that is being used correctly by most but incorrectly by some. Most have admitted they are wrong, yet feel the need to engage in silly chat with me.

Now, it is analagous to people writing 'loose' when someone is defeated instead of 'lose''.

The word 'lose' means something
The word 'loose' means something else

If some children who aren't that good at spelling, or some adults who believe it to be correct, rape the meaning of the word, it cannot mean that they have the right to change it's meaning. Logically this will attack the fabric of language.

Shisha is the term for the pipe (amongst the other terms like hookah etc). Any semi-educated person on the subject will tell you the same, and you are pretty much agreeing with me.

If this is the established correct usage, which is being adopted in the USA (due to the common definition worldwide), then quite simply when someone refers to the Tobacco as Shisha, they need to be corrected.


Now, if anyone want's to make homosexual remarks about masterbation (as Sangiuine did) or basic insults (as Milqutoast did), or simply 'who the fuck cares' as some other guy did, then I personally will ignore them, as despite accusations of ignorance for those who willfully want to change something because of their 'right as an american', I haven't gone straight out and called someone an asshole. If I do ignore those people, it would be appreciated if they are publically warned.

It really is bizarre that a few people are so eager to justify an incorrect usage of the word, that they will go at any length to claim it is 'american' to do so.

Why do people call the tobacco shisha, if the international usage is for the device itself???

The answer is because they are ignorant on the subject, hence assume that anything shisha related can be dubbed 'Shisha'

Now, if the word ignorance is offensive, then find me another word. Perhaps the term 'ignorance' has taken another meaning in the USA, but here in London where I was born and educated, I'm using it contextually in the correct manner. People with a lack of knowledge, are simply feeling unable to handle a simple simple fact.

I await the next "I accept that you are right King Mo, but here in America....'.

Edit

With this attitude, people can change the meaning of anything, and words like 'Nigger' 'Spic' and other racist terms can be accepted as non-racist because in a certain 'american' town, it is full of white people and the 'meaning has evolved'. This is the principle you people are arguing on.
If Feng shui hit USA, you cannot use Feng Shui to mean the 'capital of China' because you feel like it

The whole argument is fundamentally flawed because factually, a shisha is the pipe. The roots of it are related to the pipe (e.g. glass in persian) and in no way shape or form are related to the Tobacco.

I am open minded, and will admit in any discussion if my words are incorrect or if I agree with something. It seems that alot of people, especially those in the previous thread find it necessary to go to ever EXTREME to avoid admitting the truth. (see analogies above and previous thread for reference). At least the very existence of the thread to a newcomer will hopefully ease any potential confusion.

I reiterate

Shisha = narghile = argeeleh = Hookah = hubble bubble

M3assal = molasses = muassal = Tobacco = Shisha Tobacco

These are the commonly used words in and outside America (amongst one or two others). If someone mixes one quantity from one line with the other, I'm sure you'll correct them, as I have in my previous thread.

A few people may get confused, but let their confusion not get in the way of facts.

[Caramellanne]

King Mo, you cannot sit here and say that you were no just as guilty as the others for "name calling" you did it as well! I read the other thread entirely and you are just as much fault as the others.

[The Dude Abides]

This charade has gone on for entirely way too long, so let me say this very clear: [b]It's just slang.[/b] You can't have 5 different slang terms for something and then get all high and mighty like we're talking about an official part of the original language. And since every culture develops their own slang, just use whatever term best applies to the specific culture you are living within. In the USA saying "shisha" will get you tobacco, even if it doesn't mean that elsewhere. In Britian a "chip" is a french fry, and here it is a fried slice of potato. Neither is wrong, however, because it's merely slang and the only importance is functionality, i.e. if you want french fries while visiting the UK it would be smart to use the term "chips." Easy peasy.

[MilqueToast]

[quote name='King Mo']I vote for it to be reopened.

Everyone who responded with a fine attitude was dealt with respectfully.

Anyone who went crazy like xpimp and a few others like milquetoast who simply want to resort to childish name-calling, were ignored or decimated.

Xpimp, Milquetoast, Sanguine in particular ruined the thread. If they cannot handle a discussion, then they didn't have to post.

My suggestion is to remove the posts of anyone who didn't respond to the thread constructively, and if they got personal, give them an adequate warning.

Nobody is forced to give a personal insult.

As for PersianPride, the word Shisha itself is used in the correct context. Most people who wish to learn about it, will ask what a 'shisha' is. To explain it to them correctly is to say it is the hookah. If you want to misguide them, you'd say 'Shisha is the tobacco, or Shisha can mean tobacco or hookah'

Now, simply because some people do not know this, you can't simply change the meaning of a word that is being used correctly by most but incorrectly by some. Most have admitted they are wrong, yet feel the need to engage in silly chat with me.

Now, it is analagous to people writing 'loose' when someone is defeated instead of 'lose''.  

The word 'lose' means something
The word 'loose' means something else

If some children who aren't that good at spelling, or some adults who believe it to be correct, rape the meaning of the word, it cannot mean that they have the right to change it's meaning. Logically this will attack the fabric of language.

Shisha is the term for the pipe (amongst the other terms like hookah etc). Any semi-educated person on the subject will tell you the same, and you are pretty much agreeing with me.  

If this is the established correct usage, which is being adopted in the USA (due to the common definition worldwide), then quite simply when someone refers to the Tobacco as Shisha, they need to be corrected.


Now, if anyone want's to make homosexual remarks about masterbation (as Sangiuine did) or basic insults (as Milqutoast did), or simply 'who the fuck cares' as some other guy did, then I personally will ignore them, as despite accusations of ignorance for those who willfully want to change something because of their 'right as an american', I haven't gone straight out and called someone an asshole. If I do ignore those people, it would be appreciated if they are publically warned.

It really is bizarre that a few people are so eager to justify an incorrect usage of the word, that they will go at any length to claim it is 'american' to do so.  

Why do people call the tobacco shisha, if the international usage is for the device itself???

The answer is because they are ignorant on the subject, hence assume that anything shisha related can be dubbed 'Shisha'

Now, if the word ignorance is offensive, then find me another word. Perhaps the term 'ignorance' has taken another meaning in the USA, but here in London where I was born and educated, I'm using it contextually in the correct manner. People with a lack of knowledge, are simply feeling unable to handle a simple simple fact.

I await the next "I accept that you are right King Mo, but here in America....'.

Edit

With this attitude, people can change the meaning of anything, and words like 'Nigger' 'Spic' and other racist terms can be accepted as non-racist because in a certain 'american' town, it is full of white people and the 'meaning has evolved'. This is the principle you people are arguing on.
If Feng shui hit USA, you cannot use Feng Shui to mean the 'capital of China' because you feel like it  

The whole argument is fundamentally flawed because factually, a shisha is the pipe. The roots of it are related to the pipe (e.g. glass in persian) and in no way shape or form are related to the Tobacco.

I am open minded, and will admit in any discussion if my words are incorrect or if I agree with something. It seems that alot of people, especially those in the previous thread find it necessary to go to ever EXTREME to avoid admitting the truth. (see analogies above and previous thread for reference). At least the very existence of the thread to a newcomer will hopefully ease any potential confusion.

I reiterate

Shisha = narghile = argeeleh = Hookah = hubble bubble

M3assal = molasses = muassal = Tobacco = Shisha Tobacco

These are the commonly used words in and outside America (amongst one or two others). If someone mixes one quantity from one line with the other, I'm sure you'll correct them, as I have in my previous thread.

A few people may get confused, but let their confusion not get in the way of facts.[/quote]

You are just as guilty as the rest of us for having that thread locked. You need to be called out just like you're doing to us. The elitist "pure blood" attitude is really offensive to all of the "mudbloods" on the forum. As for personal insults, you told people to accept it when you called them ignorant because they were. Do cultural differences really make people ignorant, or is ethnocentrism your right?

If Feng Shui hit the US, and it was deemed to mean "hot dog" it would be fine because it would become a socially understood word. If you use shisha or hookah to talk about this type of pipe, you're generally understood in the US. You're not going to convince anyone otherwise.

[SanguineSolitude]

in the african american community the N word you are referring to has lost most of its racist meaning when used by a member of the same community. Bad example my friend.

[Scalliwag]

[quote name='JonnysGirl']King Mo, you cannot sit here and say that you were no just as guilty as the others for "name calling" you did it as well! I read the other thread entirely and you are just as much fault as the others.[/quote]

Well, you are technically wrong. Se, King Mo being the holder of all knowledge is not name calling, he is making a professional analysis. So let's say he calls someone an idiot. He is not name calling because his in depth analysis shows it to be true.
Those of us lowly and ignorant are just too below him to grasp it and in turn we think he is the idiot. But we are wrong and if you don't believe me, just ask Mo.

[pauldavis]

[quote name='King Mo']I reiterate  

Shisha = narghile = argeeleh = Hookah = hubble bubble  

Massal = molasses = muassal = Tobacco = Shisha Tobacco[/quote]

You see, I think I see where this stems from...

A lot of reatilers have their massal in a section labeled "Shisha Tobacco"

Perhaps this is where the mix-up comes from. You see "Tobacco for the Shisha," but others see "Tobacco that is called Shisha"

Other than that I am not getting into this.

[cymptom]

It's kinda hilarious that you (King) have a few times mentioned education in connection with your argument, as the type of argument you make has absolutely no place in contemporary academia. You keep talking about facts, so okay... lets talk about facts.

In Arabic, "m3assal" refers to hookah tobacco.
In Europe, "shisha" refers to the pipe.
In the US, "shisha" refers to hookah tobacco.

Those are facts (for now.) But the "fact" you want to argue is that when referring to hookah tobacco in any context, using the term "shisha" is WRONG. Do you actually believe that this is a FACT?

You seemed reluctant to actually engage the main points I tried to make in the first thread, aside from the side note about your "posting style" and motivations to which you simply responded "Nut-uh!", so I'll reiterate a bit:

If you refer to hookah tobacco as "m3assal" in the US, it's very likely you will not be understood. Those who understand "shisha" as referring to the pipe and "m3assal" as referring to the tobacco have likely done some investigation of the hookah as a cultural item, but these people are not necessarily the "right" ones. [b]It is not "wrong" to smoke hookah in ignorance of its cultural origins. [/b]You can't simply declare that "m3assal" is the "correct" term for the tobacco just because hookah smoking is largely a product of Arabic cultures... there are no such universalities in reality, and arguing otherwise makes you look like a supremacist (though I'm not saying that's the case.)

As for your motivations, just let me ask this: What is the point of arguing over the correctness of one term over the other even when the terms you argue against already have widely established connotations in the US? Both sides of terms have their respective "correctness" within their respective contexts. If an American goes abroad, he/she should be informed about the differences in terminology... but really, why would you take these socio-linguistic differences and call one side right and one wrong? You mention attacks on the "fabric of language" -- do I need to be the one to tell you that language is not a set of constant, absolute signs?

[PersianPride]

[quote name='King Mo']As for PersianPride, the word Shisha itself is used in the correct context. Most people who wish to learn about it, will ask what a 'shisha' is. To explain it to them correctly is to say it is the hookah. If you want to misguide them, you'd say 'Shisha is the tobacco, or Shisha can mean tobacco or hookah'

Now, simply because some people do not know this, you can't simply change the meaning of a word that is being used correctly by most but incorrectly by some. Most have admitted they are wrong, yet feel the need to engage in silly chat with me.[/quote]

Look I'll basically sum up your argument for you......your pissed off that Americans, or perhaps more specifically the people of this forum, are not accepting the majority view when it comes to the word that describes a water pipe tobacco?

That is to an extent valid however saying that referring to shisha as the tobacco is forbidden or not allowed is a rather shakey argument. As I have explained to you we are talking about a noun. Now the Arabs of the world have decided to use the persian word for 'glass' to refer to the actual smoking device on the other hand Americans have choosen whether intentionally or by popularized error to refer to the tobacco as shisha. Now how can I say that one usage is any less acceptable then the other, both are nouns. The only thing that can be said is that it is different to the popular arab noun for the device. However arabs were not the first to invent a water pipe nor have any monopoly over it. And even if they did no one can say that this term has to be universal.

[ikellen]

I tried to sneak this one in before the thread was locked, but no dice, so I'll post it here.

Just as much as that thread might have been an "intellectual" discussion, it was also an exhibition of the OP's ego. King Mo was so fed up with being right that it was pointless for anyone to try to debate the subject with him. After every response to him, King Mo was quick to come back and tongue lash the responder for their obvious stupidity (at least in his mind). He didn't even take one grain from any of the responses - it was simply him stroking his ego. Because of this I posted my humorous interjection (take that as you will) to the calamity that was that thread.

I think the OP is as responsible for that thread getting locked as the people who made certain responses. How is the discussion intelligent if the OP won't even consider responses to his thread?

[Caramellanne]

[quote name='Scalliwag'][quote name='JonnysGirl']King Mo, you cannot sit here and say that you were no just as guilty as the others for "name calling" you did it as well! I read the other thread entirely and you are just as much fault as the others.[/quote]

Well, you are technically wrong. Se, King Mo being the holder of all knowledge is not name calling, he is making a professional analysis. So let's say he calls someone an idiot. He is not name calling because his in depth analysis shows it to be true.
Those of us lowly and ignorant are just too below him to grasp it and in turn we think he is the idiot. But we are wrong and if you don't believe me, just ask Mo. [/quote]

Haha, Scalli you are hilarious!!
This is such a pointless discussion...Regarless of what we say to "His almighty, lord of all knowledge" He still will not be satisfied....I hate to say it but, yes we are American and we tend to do things the way we want to, this is our country so with that said...We should be allowed to call it "Shisha" regardless to King Mos opinion...I dont care what he says, I will call it whatever I want...Fine, from now on, I am going to call hookah tobacco "pink bunny" what do you say to that KING MO???