Hey what gives....('Shisha is the pipe NOT the tobacco')

[King Mo]

Ok

how about for those that want to argue? why not go to the dicitionary.

www.dictionary.com (which I believe uses american definitions)

[url="http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/shisha"]http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/shisha[/url]

sheesha

n : an oriental tobacco pipe with a long flexible tube connected to a container where the smoke is cooled by passing through water; "a bipolar world with the hookah and Turkish coffee versus hamburgers and Coca Cola" [syn: hookah, narghile, nargileh, shisha, chicha, calean, kalian, water pipe, hubble-bubble, hubbly-bubbly]


oops, perhaps I shouldn't have posted that.

Note the american sources (such as princeton.net)

Now, how about the mods start doing something about the racism, and let some peeps get educated

[benny]

By your definitions of terrorism and Self defence, Israel and USA are terrorists for their actions in Lebanon and Iraq.

Well on the Israel front you're blatantly wrong. Heballah terrorists crossed an international border, into Israeli land. Killed three soldiers and kidnapped two others.

They did the first act, to incite this recent upsurge. Israel left the territories 6 years ago, they started it.

Please explain how in the Lebanon conflict, That the hezbulla were defending themselves, oh please do?


Israeli troops didnt enter what is sovereign lebanese territory, to spark any need for violence by hezballah wusses.

[quote]"lebanon was destroyed"[/quote]
Lebanon is far from destroyed, its just the perverted way that BBC presents reports (as illustrated in honest reporting and other companies) about any actions that a democratic westernized country enacts.

Its not your fault i guess, that you cant see past blatantly biased reporting. Its just easier to accept untruths.

[xblakex]

King mo. First off i wanna say that I respect you and all of the great input you used to have back in the day on the forum. I used to love your reviews and look forward to them. My major problem with your issue is this, I really dislike it when people jump on a bandwagon very late in an issues career and then persecute other people for not being on the bandwagon. Or people that start listening to a band long into a bands existance and then tell people that they are sooo into the band and all of their old music. The point is this. In your review thread you say this with regard to Al Fakher Strawberry -- Overall: this is a fantastic part of a shisha collection, and a very solid strawberry flavour, -- That was maybe a year and a half ago. I don't see why you're so die hard on this issue when you yourself were either ignorant as to the meaning of shisha, or didn't care then.

Like I said, I respect you. I just don't think this is an issue worth arguing.

[xblakex]

Used to respect you. That's bs that you call a good guy like scalli a rascist just to get under his skin. What happend to you man? Be more civilized.

[King Mo]

[quote name='benny']By your definitions of terrorism and Self defence, Israel and USA are terrorists for their actions in Lebanon and Iraq.  

Well on the Israel front you're blatantly wrong. Heballah terrorists crossed an international border, into Israeli land. Killed three soldiers and kidnapped two others.

They did the first act, to incite this recent upsurge. Israel left the territories 6 years ago, they started it.

Please explain how in the Lebanon conflict, That the hezbulla were defending themselves, oh please do?


Israeli troops didnt enter what is sovereign lebanese territory, to spark any need for violence by hezballah wusses.

[quote]"lebanon was destroyed"[/quote]
Lebanon is far from destroyed, its just the perverted way that BBC presents reports (as illustrated in honest reporting and other companies) about any actions that a democratic westernized country enacts.

Its not your fault i guess, that you cant see past blatantly biased reporting. Its just easier to accept untruths.[/quote]

Do you know anyone in South Lebanon??
I know many.

Do you know any palestinians?? well, in London we are very multicultural and have many.

Do you know any Iraqis??

I know many and the common fact with all these people, is that many have lost loved ones due to terrorism despite being purely innocent.

Now, do I know Americans too??

yea I do, and the educated ones empathise with the oppressed.




Why should I go for biased reporting when I hear reports from real people


@xblakex, thanks for your comments. with regards to my review, I have never expressed objection to saying a 'strawberry shisha' being a shisha containing strawberry tobacco, or a Shisha collection' meaning a collection of items related to shisha.

The context is very important.
What I have objected to, is people not knowing what the damn thing is Hopefully the definition can end the topic.

[King Mo]

[quote name='xblakex']Used to respect you.  That's bs that you call a good guy like scalli a rascist just to get under his skin.  What happend to you man?  Be more civilized.[/quote]

How can a good guy be a racist??

the guy implied I think he is an infidel,

Now there is no good reason for this other than racist feelings.

Either I am racist for implying he is one in a derogatory manner,
or he is racist by trying to use a term to generate anti-arab sentiment with no basis whatsoever.

I won't even get into what johnnygirl said, it's all quoted.


As for Scally mentioning that Mushrat thinks I called everyone infidels, I would like mushrat to comment. Unlike Scalliwag I have no need to be prejudiced.

[entrailsgalore]

You told me to check wiki and I did, but Im still wrong I guess.

Im uneducated if I use shisha to describe tobacco? Then Im uneducated. But im still gonna be making the hunreds and fifties regardless. Thats the beuty of america, youd ont need an education to become a millionaire

[xblakex]

Way to not even touch my previous post that was on this topic. I still wanna know, were you ignorant or just didn't care a year ago, and why such a strong change.

[King Mo]

[quote name='entrailsgalore']You told me to check wiki and I did, but Im still wrong I guess.

Im uneducated if I use shisha to describe tobacco? Then Im uneducated. But im still gonna be making the hunreds and fifties regardless. Thats the beuty of america, youd ont need an education to become a millionaire [/quote]

Why are you looking to be offended. You need to chill a bit

context my man, Context.

I hope you make a lot of money.

I told you to check wikipedia, not hookahwiki, but anyway, regardless, these can be edited by random joes. I hope the definition is clear.

People can call it what they like, as long as they know the truth. I have not objected to that.

[King Mo]

[quote name='xblakex']Way to not even touch my previous post that was on this topic.  I still wanna know, were you ignorant or just didn't care a year ago, and why such a strong change.[/quote]


erm, read 3 posts above yours.

there has been no change, it's simply for clarity purposes for newcomers to shisha.

[cymptom]

Shisha doesn't typically refer to the pipe in America -- the pipe is called a hookah here. If the word shisha is used, chances are it's in reference to tobacco. And look where we are... hookahforum.com.

[quote name='King Mo']Why change something when it already has an established meaning universally.[/quote]Do you really think that a word can have cross-culturally universal meaning?

[quote name='King Mo']Still waiting for a mod to comment on the racism quoted earlier.[/quote]Still waiting for you to address my prior arguments... or should I take your reluctance to do so as a raising of the white flag?

[quote name='King Mo']once you know the mistake, yet continue to believe otherwise, it is fair to call you ignorant.[/quote]Ignorant means 'not knowing'... if you know the mistake, how can you be 'not knowing?'

edit: WOW... name calling in profiles. That's a new one...
You might not have too much trouble getting people to dislike you (it's almost starting to seem as though you want to be disliked), but it's gonna be hard to shift your people against Scalli and Johnnysgirl by calling them names in your profile

[King Mo]

Like or dislike is too strong a term for internet forums.

I am not calling them 'names'. I am calling them racists with legitimate reason. There is no reason to think otherwise as of yet.


WordNet - Cite This Source

sheesha

n : an oriental tobacco pipe with a long flexible tube connected to a container where the smoke is cooled by passing through water; "a bipolar world with the hookah and Turkish coffee versus hamburgers and Coca Cola" [syn: hookah, narghile, nargileh, shisha, chicha, calean, kalian, water pipe, hubble-bubble, hubbly-bubbly]
[b]WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University[/b]

[DizzyGuy]

Ok... but that doesn't mean it's being used as slang in the states to mean tobacco. So what, you've proved it's "real" meaning is the pipe. Congratulations. That doesn't mean that it's NOT a common term for tobacco in the states. There is no "WELL IT'S WRONG. RAWR. WAH". That is the straight simple fact: That it is ALSO refered to as tobacco.

[cymptom]

The Princeton dictionary links the word shisha to that definition along with a multitude of other terms:

[quote]S: (n) hookah, narghile, nargileh, sheesha, shisha, chicha, calean, kalian, water pipe, hubble-bubble, hubbly-bubbly (an oriental tobacco pipe with a long flexible tube connected to a container where the smoke is cooled by passing through water) "a bipolar world with the hookah and Turkish coffee versus hamburgers and Coca Cola"[/quote]

The dictionary doesn't exactly indicate which of the terms is in dominant use, although do note that the example given uses the term "hookah," not shisha. The fact that they don't list hookah tobacco as a definition isn't necessarily indicative of the language in practice. Wikipedia, a source we can assume is more up to date with the current usages of the word, says that "shisha" refers to the flavored tobacco by synecdoche. But this is all kinda irrelevant and secondary to the earlier arguments I made, which you seem to be skimming over.

Mo... you're labeling people in your profile. IF you've got something to prove, you should find a better way of going about it because that just seems downright desperate, or childish, or something...

[benny]

You've shown your bias already, genius.

Are you friends with any israelis? You know anyone who has been blown up at a cafe? in a Shwarma store? Kebab store? The dophinarium nightclub?

And to answer your questions, i have both palestinian and lebanese friends.

Know anyone whos house has been hit by Qassams? Or Katyusha's from lebanon?

You didnt mention that point.

When Hezbullah's pledge is to destroy israel, and israel attacks them, how can you be so naive, to call it terrorism. Theres no israeli doctrine that suggests we want to wipe out all our neighbours and steal their land. They want peace, and with a bunch of Lieing, neceitfu psychopathic gun toting neighbours, the situation looks grim, and when Israel is forced to defend herself, you call it terrorism? Are you sure you are a native english speaker?

[King Mo]

For those that are claiming that 'shisha' in america refers to the tobacco as it has changed, the princeton definition shoots that down. It's probably the most solid source thusfar in this thread. Seeing as it's an American source helps, because for some reason, what the rest of the world calls it does not matter.

It shows the proper definition, which I've been saying all along, and all claims that 'in america we say shisha to refer to the tobacco' are just deviating from this.

I will say it again, an American who believes Shisha Tobacco is in fact 'shisha' is incorrect. If they refer to it in a slang manner, or even in a lazy manner, I do not have objection to this. What I have objected to is the fact that people genuinly believe this to be the case, against popular definition, and now against the American definition.

Why is it, that in any normal scenario, if someone refers to the tobacco as 'shisha' and are corrected, then there is no problem. But to some people here, it is like their mother was raped and they will not accept that they have made a mistake. The ignorance comes from lack of knowledge, and if you do not know enough about shisha, you will believe that the tobacco is in fact called 'shisha'.

There is no American about it, and there is no duel meaning. There are simply stubborn people that have compounded the error made by some of their countrymen. Even the manufacturers do not label their product 'shisha'. Some of you need to step out of this cocoon of 'my american buddy cannot be wrong' and realise that all I have corrected is a simple misunderstanding on your part. Why argue it when it is actually wrong and with no solid basis other than some random joes making random mistakes due to not knowing what a shisha is???

I'm not sure how calling someone 'racist' is namecalling. It's not, it is a factual assessment with valid reason. I didn't force these guys to be racist. I suggest you focus on the racist rather than the recipient

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@Benny

I am not friends with any Israelis. The ones I've met tend to not like those with arab origin. I am friends with a number of Jewish people.

Israelis have suffered from terrorism, I have not denied that, but they've killed a hell of alot more. 1000 in lebanon alone with sophisticated weaponry. Hezbollah would not exist had Israel not oppressed so many people. Look at why they were formed in the first place. They have also not targetted civilians. Their katyushas with simple trajectory calculations have been more accurate than the laser guided bombs.

30-50 israeli civilians died?? 1000+ Lebanese died. Are you mentally ill or simply deluded? which part of Israel has been killing thousands, bulldozing their homes and torturing countless in their prisons do you not understand???

How can the aggressor and the one killing the most people be defending herself?

The only biased one is you, and your intentions are apparant from your post. You start with some random nonsense about the BBC, and then think a Hezbollah (who are the people of south lebanon) capture of soldiers, (yes solidiers!!!) with hundreds of their prisoners being tortured in israeli jails is somehow worthy of the destruction of their country??

[quote]Theres no israeli doctrine that suggests [b]we[/b] want to wipe out all our neighbours and steal their land. They want peace, and with a bunch of Lieing, neceitfu psychopathic gun toting neighbours, the situation looks grim, and when Israel is forced to defend herself, you call it terrorism? Are you sure you are a native english speaker?[/quote]

Are you sure you are not Israeli yourself, or Jewish?? referring to Israel as 'we' is a pretty amateurish slip if you are trying to hide your intentions.
King Mo is open with his statements and hides behind nothing. Terrorism is worthy of condemnation and I have never ever thought a suicide bomb is a good thing, as Iraq suffers from the same fate (although much more than Israel!!). Even Cherie Blair thought what the palestinians did was 'understandable'

Israel have always been the aggressors. You cannot have peace with oppression ,and as the saying goes 'where there is occupation, there will always be resistance'

Oh, and are you sure you are a native English speaker?? perhaps you are more comfortable with hebrew?

Nobody has forced Israel to do anything. They are state surrounded by people that have been oppressed by them. They are also a nuclear power against all international laws which begs the question, who has caused the most instability???.

You can complain all you want, but the fact remains that Israel has killed far more innocent civilians than anything they have EVER suffered.

therefore, it begs the question, how can 'self-defence' be justified, if it is disproportionate to the attack received?? If I killed someone that slapped me, I'd go to jail.

Laser guided terrorism should not be accepted, it would be a good thing if you realise this instead of justifying all the murders.

[url="http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/"]http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/[/url]

[benny]

[quote]They have also not targetted civilians.[/quote]Are you stupid? or Naive? They aimed at all majour cities within reach? Not military bases? CITIES

[quote]Israel have always been the aggressors[/quote]
I believe the first war, and infact most wars that israel has fought, have been Instigated by Israel's neigbours.

I can accept why Hezballah was formed, but for 6 years they had no occupation, no random kidappings, etc. Why stockpile 10,000 rockets? Why still swear to your motto of destroying israel, when for over half a decade, israel posed no threat.

[quote]Even Cherie Blair thought what the palestinians did was 'understandable' Very Happy[/quote]A) She married tony
she relied on an Australian fraudster for financial advice.

Based on point B alone, shes a real good act to follow.

[quote]Oh, and are you sure you are a native English speaker?? perhaps you are more comfortable with hebrew?[/quote]
Im not hiding anything. Im jewish. But i dont speak hebrew, great assumption there.

Please explain to me how [quote]They are state surrounded by people that have been oppressed by them[/quote]I dont see any opression on Jordan, or Egypt. The Golan heights are arguable, but for the moment theres no impending direct syrian threat.

So what, israel Has nuclear power. Their not setting off test nukes to piss their neighbours off. They're not threatening to wipe anyone off the map, and they're not irrational or stupid enough to start firing nukes all around the place, like, dare I say Iran and other neighbouring countries probably are.

Everything is relative in terms of the numbers of deaths. Israel has a far smaller population then any of its neighbours. Im sure if you compare proportions it would be more similarly aligned. Further more where do you draw the line between civilian and terrorists? Hezballah would have you believe that they're all simply innocent civilians being shot at by ruthless israelis.

There were 119 israelis Killed, if i remember correctly.

I would say the number would have been drastically higher, had israel not forced every building to have a bomb shelter built in to it. 3000+ Rockets were fired indescriminately at civilian populations!!! Are you [quote]Mentally Ill or simply deluded??[/quote]

The Hezballah attack, had israel been built in simmilar fashion to Beirut, Tyre or any other attacked village, would have been far more devastating.

Again the numbers are hazy, and theres plenty of footage to suggest that 'civilians' killed in lebanon were actually hezballah fighters.


[quote]Laser guided terrorism should not be accepted, it would be a good thing if you realise this instead of justifying all the murders.  [/quote][quote]How can the aggressor and the one killing the most people be defending herself?[/quote]

[quote]Israel have always been the aggressors[/quote]Again, the recent war was not by any means instigated by israel. The agression of a military nature was started by hezballah. Its pretty clear.

Violation of Border
Incursion into Sovereign Territory
Murder of 3 soldiers
blowing up of a merkava tank
Kidnapping of 2 soldiers.

Thats what sparked the conflict, the acts were done by hezballah, and they are the agressors in the situation, not israel.

[quote]Israel have always been the aggressors[/quote]

In 1948 upon israels formation, was asking for peace with palestinian residents, really an act of agression? Offering them full citizenship and civil liberties was agression?

Oh and by your moral double standards, all of Israel's faithful neigbhours waging war on a practically defenceless country, was an act of sheer kindness?

and for the record, im well aquainted with our dear self hating jews. Theyre few and far between. Noam Chomsky being one of the more educated fools.

[pauldavis]

[quote]Is an Anti-Sematic <sp?> a racist? Mo sure fits that bill. Some of the Anti- U.S. remarks that were in depth were racist and covered entire groups of people.[/quote]Correct me if I am wrong...but Arabic is a semitic language too (as is Hebrew)...so i think it would be very hard for Mo to be an Anti-Semite

a guy who does not know how to deliver knowledge, yes

btw...I think what upset a lot of people is the repeated use of the word "ignorant" and it's variations. I know you keep insisting that it simply means uneducated, or lacking knowledge, and that is does not have a negative conotation where you are from.....but it does here...perhaps if you wish to reach your target audiance better, you should do some more linguistic research...since you are basing your argument on linguistics pretty much, i do not think this would be too much to ask

(and scalli, i did not mean to sound like a dick after quoting your post...but that is something i have been wondering about and i think king mo if anyone could answer it)

[cymptom]

[quote name='King Mo']For those that are claiming that 'shisha' in america refers to the tobacco as it has changed, the princeton definition shoots that down. It's probably the most solid source thusfar in this thread. Seeing as it's an American source helps, because for some reason, what the rest of the world calls it does not matter.

It shows the proper definition, which I've been saying all along, and all claims that 'in america we say shisha to refer to the tobacco' are just deviating from this.

I will say it again, an American who believes Shisha Tobacco is in fact 'shisha' is incorrect. If they refer to it in a slang manner, or even in a lazy manner, I do not have objection to this. What I have objected to is the fact that people genuinly believe this to be the case, against popular definition, and now against the American definition.

Why is it, that in any normal scenario, if someone refers to the tobacco as 'shisha' and are corrected, then there is no problem. But to some people here, it is like their mother was raped and they will not accept that they have made a mistake. The ignorance comes from lack of knowledge, and if you do not know enough about shisha, you will believe that the tobacco is in fact called 'shisha'.  

There is no American about it, and there is no duel meaning. There are simply stubborn people that have compounded the error made by some of their countrymen. Even the manufacturers do not label their product 'shisha'. Some of you need to step out of this cocoon of 'my american buddy cannot be wrong' and realise that all I have corrected is a simple misunderstanding on your part. Why argue it when it is actually wrong and with no solid basis other than some random joes making random mistakes due to not knowing what a shisha is???

I'm not sure how calling someone 'racist' is namecalling. It's not, it is a factual assessment with valid reason. I didn't force these guys to be racist. I suggest you focus on the racist rather than the recipient [/quote]As I already said, the fact that the Princeton dictionary OMITS one of the term's connotations proves nothing -- many dictionaries don't even have an entry for the word shisha... does that mean it doesn't exist? In popular usage, if the word "shisha" is used, it is most likely in reference to the tobacco. You yourself use the term to refer to the whole of the pipe AND the flavored tobacco, yet you say it refers strictly to the pipe, NOT the tobacco. If that's the case, how do you get sentences like these:

"this shisha is probably amongst the strongest I have ever smoked, due to the strong tobacco flavour of it."

The pipe is the strongest you have smoked? The pipe has a strong tobacco flavor?

"A good shisha, with a satisfactory amount of smoke generated."

So the pipe smokes well... but wait -- you were reviewing tobacco, not the pipe.

"It is a light smooth shisha that you can smoke for hours"

A light smooth pipe eh?

The Princeton dictionary, by your reasoning, "shoots down" your own usage of the word. But as I said, these are all petty matters -- why aren't you engaging me on the fundamental and methodological level on which I've argued against the basis of this thread?

[joetuo]

[quote]I will say it again, an American who believes Shisha Tobacco is in fact 'shisha' is incorrect. If they refer to it in a slang manner, or even in a lazy manner, I do not have objection to this.[/quote]

Didn't that just solve this whole argument i mean we call it shisha on a slang term so he says thats ok with him....

[img]http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o17/jtuo/arguing.jpg[/img]

[King Mo]

[quote]As I already said, the fact that the Princeton dictionary OMITS one of the term's connotations proves nothing -- many dictionaries don't even have an entry for the word shisha... does that mean it doesn't exist?[/quote]pure speculation, it hasn't removed or 'not included' a thing. It has given the definition of the word from an american perspective, which shoots down all arguments. Your views are simply trying to argue for the sake of it, when the world disagrees, as well as American tobacco manufacturers as well as the actual dictionary.

What does shisha mean??? see definition, and see previous posts.

[quote]In popular usage, if the word "shisha" is used, it is most likely in reference to the tobacco. You yourself use the term to refer to the whole of the pipe AND the flavored tobacco, yet you say it refers strictly to the pipe, NOT the tobacco. If that's the case, how do you get sentences like these: [i](quotes including King Mo's comments which may imply the shisha is the tobacco follow this)[/i][/quote]

Thanks for the recap on my statements. This is where context is important. I know what Shisha means, and I know what the tobacco or m3assal is. They are established quantities and in my head there is no confusion as there is with many on this thread. If I've had a Shisha pipe with strawberry tobacco, I'll call it a strawberry shisha. If I say 'this shisha is good', I am referring to the shisha containing the tobacco. You could say it is myself applying the same slang.

Now, these comments are not an issue, otherwise I wouldn't say them myself. What is an issue, is where people delude themselves into thinking that Shisha = flavoured Tobacco. This is not the case universally and barring the odd newcomer to the world of shisha, belief that Shisha actually refers to the tobacco makes no sense.

If you ask anyone "what is a shisha" and they respond "shisha is flavoured tobacco that you put in a Shisha"

Then that person has a lack of knowledge on the subject. Full stop, Period, and exclamation mark.

Going against the definition used by shisha smokers worldwide and also the american adopted definition smacks of people being too proud to admit their mistakes.

[quote]The Princeton dictionary, by your reasoning, "shoots down" your own usage of the word. But as I said, these are all petty matters -- why aren't you engaging me on the fundamental and methodological level on which I've argued against the basis of this thread?[/quote]

My whole thread has been on the fundamental and methodological level. You just cannot accept that for some reason. It's easy to say 'fundamental and methadological' but that doesn't mean your argument addresses that. You've simply assumed you do despite the fact that my posts have covered all your points (not necessarily personal responses to you).

I cannot go round in circles so I'll post a recap of the thread and anyone who wishes to make a final comment, they can be safe in the knowledge I won't respond to it.

(if the pro state-terrorism guy wants to discuss the issues, I suggest taking them to the tangiers thread which already exists with many pro-israelis getting very excited despite their points being responded to)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shisha now exists and is a pastime enjoyed by millions.

The definition of Shisha to any smoker is the waterpipe, or narghile/hookah/hubblebubble/argeeleh

Shisha cannot be defined as the tobacco, and has never been defined as the tobacco. In America, or elsewhere.

Verification of this can be found by looking at the packaging of pretty much any M3assal worldwide. There may be some random joe who'll release a pack differently, but there is an overwhelming majority that do not and will not. The reason for this is that Shisha is the waterpipe, and not the tobacco.

Now, some people ,felt it was their right as an American to change the definition. I have objected to this for the reasons throughout the post. An Apple is not an Orange.

This escalated due to Scalliwag mentioning the 'infidels' remark and accusing me of 'anti-semitism' and God knows what else to mask his racist views.
He was somewhat collaborating with Johnnysgirl, who insulted arab women worldwide due to her own racism and insecurities.

Looking at Scallis video, and johnnysgirl's picture, naturally these are white Americans who maybe wish things were like the good old days when slavery existed. (I won't even get started on the way they look!!
:roll: )

As such , I have named them as racists in my signature and this has significant justification. (no questions on that please). If it is proven they are not racist, or their racism is acknowledged then I may remove it.

Ultimately, there are some people too proud to admit that the Shisha is the pipe. Some themselves have said that its 'slang' or colloquial to refer to the tobacco as shisha, and that in itself is agreeing with me. Using slang as I do, . I have not disagreed with such people as they accept that Shisha is the hookah and cannot be defined as the tobacco.

Ultimately, the truth can smack someone on the head and they will never see it, all I can do is lay out the argument, give a more informed view of some of the international usage and back up things with definitions as well as manufacturers labels.

No matter what those who choose to 'define shisha as the tobacco' will be displaying ignorance on the topic of shisha, regardless of what their expertise is. They may be versed in aspects, but flawed in others without admitting it.

Regardless of this, if you ask the millions of shisha smokers worldwide (last time I checked, America is part of the world despite some objections from a few contributers), "what is a shisha", if someone says "it's a hookah/narghile etc" you can agree with them, and if they say "it's tobacco/molasses", you can see that they are still unclued

[b]Forget slang, forget random contextual usage which is perfectly fine, I am speaking definition, and by definition, the Shisha, is the water-pipe. If you are aware of this then no matter what you say, you'll always be safe in the knowledge you know the correct meaning. Anyone who believes otherwise and gives it another definition, (Apple being orange etc), is one who disagrees with me.
[/b]


Once a thread gets to the stage of points being recycled, I think it is time to finish.

I have not minded this discussion at all and I thank those who took the time to post arguments rather than petty bigotry and random insults. I hope you are satisfied to some extent with the responses. I have noticed that there is not much discussion going on these days.

The further contributors can have the satisfaction of the final word

[entrailsgalore]

I think weve come to a stalemate.

Your oppinion is that in Arabic Shisha means pipe, so in every otehr language known to man shisha also means pipe.

Mostly everyone else on this forums says that shisha can mean pipe in SOME launguages and in OTHERs it means tobacco.

Check the reviews section how many people call the tobacco shisha? Do a google search for hookah or shisha. Alot of people and websites call the tobacco shisha. I checked the Shisha wiki. And Shisha wiki is still wiki so why would shisha wiki be wrong but wiki be right? doesnt make sense to me. And Im not offended by any means, just perplexed.

Youre using any evidence that supports your oppion, but youre not looking at any of the evidence that doesnt. Ive showe dyou websites, the wiki definition, explaind actual mechanics in the english launguage that supports the theroyr that in the west, shisha means tobacco too. But I, according to you, amd still blatenly wrong.

I guess even though youre arab, you know about english than I do lol.

[King Mo]

[quote name='entrailsgalore']I think weve come to a stalemate.  

Your oppinion is that in Arabic Shisha means pipe, so in every otehr language known to man shisha also means pipe.  

Mostly everyone else on this forums says that shisha can mean pipe in SOME launguages and in OTHERs it means tobacco.  

Check the reviews section how many people call the tobacco shisha? Do a google search for hookah or shisha. Alot of people and websites call the tobacco shisha. I checked the Shisha wiki. And Shisha wiki is still wiki so why would shisha wiki be wrong but wiki be right? doesnt make sense to me. And Im not offended by any means, just perplexed.  

Youre using any evidence that supports your oppion, but youre not looking at any of the evidence that doesnt. Ive showe dyou websites, the wiki definition, explaind actual mechanics in the english launguage that supports the theroyr that in the west, shisha means tobacco too. But I, according to you, amd still blatenly wrong.  

I guess even though youre arab, you know about english than I do lol.[/quote]

I'm not commenting further on the thread, but I am as English as you are American. Born and raised in London as well as educated to a graduate level . So I may well know more about English than you do, with the added advantage of being bilingual. I am a native English speaker, and also due to arab origins can speak arabic fluently.

AS for me believing the arabic definition of shisha applies worldwide, it is clear you have not grasped anything I've said, as the arabic definition has nothing to do with it, Shisha is not an exclusive arabic word, let alone an arabic word.

further queries you can pm me. It is too tempting to continue this, but do not misquote me or make assumptions about my 'language' as that should be clear from the words I type.

[cymptom]

[quote name='King Mo']I know what Shisha means, and I know what the tobacco or m3assal is. They are established quantities and in my head there is no confusion as there is with many on this thread. If I've had a Shisha pipe with strawberry tobacco, I'll call it a strawberry shisha. If I say 'this shisha is good', I am referring to the shisha containing the tobacco.[/quote]You don't think that the pipe and tobacco are "established quantities" to everyone else? There is no confusion... when someone says "I got some new strawberry shisha" people know what they're talking about.

[quote name='King Mo']Regardless, it is not 'americanised' to call the tobacco 'shisha'. It is simply not knowing what it is referring to.[/quote]This doesn't quite seem to match with your recent allowance that "shisha" can be used as slang.



The fact that your usage of the term can incorporate the tobacco itself into its connotations conflicts with your prior bold statements that the word "shisha" has nothing at all to do with tobacco, and proves my point that the word can be used a number of ways depending on the context. Nobody here is arguing that the term "shisha" traditionally is not used to refer solely to the tobacco. You're sitting over on the other side of the pond telling us that Americans don't use the term "shisha" solely to refer to tobacco, but in actuality the majority hardly ever use "shisha" to refer to the pipe. The Princeton dictionary lists "shisha" as a synonym of "hookah" -- because it IS a synonym -- but that doesn't mean people generally think of the pipe as a "shisha."

Shisha does have other connotations, and it's a bit more than slang -- slang is restricted to in-groups. Shisha is used to refer to tobacco too widely to be slang. Yes, the word's meaning has been twisted so some extent, but whatever new meaning it has acquired is just as legitimate within its context as the traditional meaning is in its respective contexts. The Japanese word for a space heater is "sutoobu," taken from the English "stove," because people in the past used their stove to heat their homes. Today there is no central heating in many Japanese homes -- they use electric space heaters which they still refer to as "stoves." This is not "wrong" or "ignorant" at all... and if I said it was, it would be ethnocentrism.

[quote name='King Mo']The only way my point is invalid, is if Shisha in America is used solely to refer to the tobacco.[/quote]Well... that's just about the case. People who know a bit about hookah might know that it is also called a shisha, but as I've stressed a whole bunch of times, hardly anyone commonly uses "shisha" to refer to the pipe. IF someone says shisha (and I probably hear "hookah tobacco" just as often) they're most likely referring to the tobacco.

[quote name='King Mo']My whole thread has been on the fundamental and methodological level. You just cannot accept that for some reason. It's easy to say 'fundamental and methadological' but that doesn't mean your argument addresses that. You've simply assumed you do despite the fact that my posts have covered all your points (not necessarily personal responses to you).[/quote]No, it really hasn't. Your argument has been that calling hookah tobacco "shisha" is WRONG because calling the pipe itself "shisha" is RIGHT. Only recently have you taken a step towards argumentation, asserting that referring to hookah tobacco as "shisha" is WRONG because the dictionary doesn't say that it's RIGHT.

Here again are my questions and arguments you have ignored, aimed at the fundamentals of the methodology in which we address cross-cultural issues such as these: (copied from previous posts)

Do you really think that a word can have cross-culturally universal meaning?

Those who understand "shisha" as referring to the pipe and "m3assal" as referring to the tobacco have likely done some investigation of the hookah as a cultural item, but these people are not necessarily the "right" ones. It is not "wrong" to smoke hookah in ignorance of its cultural origins.

What is the point of arguing over the correctness of one term over the other even when the terms you argue against already have widely established connotations in the US? Both sides of terms have their respective "correctness" within their respective contexts. If an American goes abroad, he/she should be informed about the differences in terminology... but really, why would you take these socio-linguistic differences and call one side right and one wrong? You mention attacks on the "fabric of language" -- do I need to be the one to tell you that language is not a set of constant, absolute signs?

The "fact" you want to argue is that when referring to hookah tobacco in any context, using the term "shisha" is WRONG. Not just wrong in any particular context -- it is universally entirely wrong. Do you actually believe that a statement such as this could be called a FACT?

You seem to have a haphazard way of handling information and drawing conclusions. Now you say it's a FACT that Scalliwag and Johnnysgirl are racists, that you have PROVEN this, because he said that you thought we were infidels or something silly like that. Oh, and because of their pictures too... :shock: :?: Frankly, you do talk to people as though they are infidels... I don't remember exactly but I'm pretty sure that's all Scalli was getting at. That's what it means to "speak with a royal air."

[King Mo]

If you don't remember exactly what was racist, have a look at the lovely exchange scalliwag had with Johnnysgirl. I had no problem with them until that point. Don't take responsibility for the actions of others, if they are racist, there is no need for you to comment. I have reacted very mildly indeed towards the racism. Being Arabic was only mentioned by me because the member LB claimed that her/his arabic knowledge and being an arabic student disagreed with my remarks. Being arabic was secondary to this argument. In the same way no white man is 'originally' american, they are still american, and I am as English as they are American. I hold no other nationality Others feel differently because it doesn't enter their heads, and racism and even xenophobia (with flawed fundamentals) ensues from such characters.

As for the rest of the thread, feel free to question me via pm, I will not comment further about the issues. You may see this as a cop-out, but honestly, if u want to communicate via pm, or via msn even, there is no problem.