How would you handle it LB?

[[LB]]

i really don't like how lately this forum has been way over reacting and using bans and suspensions instead of talking out problems. I dont mean any offense when i say this but yash and mushrat i think that you are trying too hard to show your authority and flex your muscles, maybe there are better ways than this to resolve issues. It not only alienates new members browsing the former but turns smokers liek HIM away from the forum who have the potential of bringing knowledge to this forum and contributing, try pms and next time DONT publicize bannings, lest this forum become no more than a scaffolding for humiliating members. Not to mention you said the reason for ban was an 'attitude' problem which simply isnt justified.

[ksblazer]

I'm tired of people over reacting on this forum as well. It seems like everyone wants to be the hookahforum police around here. Let's leave that up to the mods.

LB: I don't think the Mods are flexing their muscles they gave us a warning when they posted the "read the codes of conduct" thread. While I have thick enough skin to handle peoples foul language. I don't want to read that on every thread I read. To me thats a turn off and I can't imagine what people think that click onto this forum, to see what kind of place it's like for their first time. I belong to other forums and I do feel things are starting to get a little out of hand in here. Usually when this type of bahavior happens the mods will suspend them longer than just a couple of days. I'm glad that HE gave a sincere apology and I do look forward to seeing him back.

Hopefully things will calm down a little for everyone and we can use this site for what it was intended to be. A place to hang out, socialize and talk about our love for the hookah. Not a place to be vulger and potentualy start hard feelings between us. I'm glad to hear Yonatan didn't take offence to HIS remarks. But I could see how other people might have, if it happened to them.

PS: The reason you don't see the offensive posts is becaues the mods had to remove them. Which is a good thing IMO.

We are getting more and more new members every day, so lets show them that we are civalized and that this is the best place to hang out at.

[mushrat]

LB: While i respect your opinion, i'm forced to disagree. Considering in the last few months we have several HH "spooks", several radical religious/political problems that have spread through every part of the forum with slurs and insults being included in peoples signatures, some guy hawking handbags about 3 different times in EVERY forum area, a few threats, some "anonimous" threats to the forum and certain members, a merchant site paying people for reviews, and another where the owner was posting how great his stuff is (he's stopped and is now a productive emmebr of the forum, after sanctioning). Plus we HAVEn't had any further problems from the likes of Mathazar amd old Dick (who some secretive person pm'd me to say he'd died, Richard, not Mathazar), and the fact that YOU can post with relative ease unbothered by talk of "how to best smoke pot in my hookah". I'd say the Admins and Mods are doing ok...

Unless of course you'd prefer to go back to the days when NO one was watching out over the forum and lovely people like BADASS were roaming free?

Of course, we haven't used our "muscle" for anything good on the forum either right LB? No new review sections? no new chat sections? no one actually on regularly to take care of things when they go wrong? Forgot to mention that stuff.
Now, one would almost say, since you are free to accuse me and Yash of abusing our "powers" that perhaps sour grapes are being heard? Neither are true, but both are pretty ugly to say. I don't mean mine of course.

The rules are simple:
NO drug conversation or related Nicknames
RESPECT the other posters. No insulting beyond good natured banter, no racial/ethnic/religious slurs.
You may not repetedly call someone Ignorant because they disagree with you.
FUCK is perfectly acceptable in the right context.
No commercial postings unless you have identified yourself as working for that company, and then you are expected to contribute to regular conversations as well.

That is hardly a difficult list to follow and you pretty much know when you are breaking one of them. Expect something to happen.

Now, if we really wanted to cover the forums LEGAL ass, we'd require proof of legal age to smoke in your country of residence, so we can't be accused of contributing to the delinquency of minors etc...you hit 18 yet?

3 of us were chosen to be Mods/admins and we added a 4th. And a Mod. We were picked by the general crowd who cared enough to express an opinion. MOST people seem to think we are either doing an ok job, or don't think we are doing a bad enough job to be worth complaining about. So LB, if some starts hacking on you and your believes, your religion, your family, etc...we'll still do something about it, but remember you said the above when we do.

There, i said it, i feel better.... :twisted:

[[LB]]

while i understand what your saying mushrat, i still don't believe publicizing bannings and suspensions should be a regular activity on this forum. Maybe we can reach a common ground on this issue

[mushrat]

and how should we let people know they are suspended? just let them come back and not be able to log in?
How should we deter others from having it happen to them. Nothing personal to the folks it's happened to, but if you can't follow the very simple rules, even after being warned, you DESERVE a little negative publicity...make the next guy think twice...

And since we never sticky etc a suspension notice, as soon as people stop posting to it...it'll sink pretty fast into oblivion.

But i'm curiouse LB, how would YOU handle it. Remember, it has to be both a punishment AND a deterrant.

[[LB]]

you removed the posts so im not %100 sure as to what HE said exactly and what rules he broke. If its racism, extreme profanity or any ongoing (after a warning) discussion of hookah use as drug paraphonelia, he should be banned indefinently.
Assuming his infraction was not as severe as you all make it out to be, I would certainly not start a thread declaring his ban to the entire forum in an attempt to humiliate him, rather id pm him of his infraction. After he has read the pm, id have him apologize in his OWN thread and then give him possibly a weeks suspension. How does that sound? or are you trying to pick a fight with me so you can suspend me too because i have a voice?

I think hed get the message. I think what you did, it might not have, has the potential of creating a much uglier situation- like the situation concerning mathazar back in the day.

[[LB]]

and if you wanna cover the legal aspect and bann me cause im not 18, if it makes you feel better go ahead and do it. As far as im concerned im a French Citizen, and have been all my life a native speaker and resident, and last time i checked it was perfectly legal.

[xpimpitox]

yeoch i miss a lot not being on the forums as much. i think the public annoucements are fine. it does kinda let newbies now how things are gonna be run around here. i think all the mods/admins are doin a fine job even though i missed everything that went down. keep up the good work!

[ioannisds]

Plus we HAVEn't had any further problems from the likes of Mathazar amd old Dick (who some secretive person pm'd me to say he'd died, Richard, not Mathazar)

Did he really croak? Wow. No one deserves to die, though we all will get our chance. But damn, I hated that dude. Talk about mixed feelings.

[cymptom]

I'm not really willing to take a side here, but I just have to ask -- don't users need to provide an email address when they make an account? Why can't they be notified by email that they've been banned?

[mushrat]

nope, not trying to pick a fight with you cause you have a voice, i just believe if you are going to criticize, you need to have soemthing better to offer. So wait, you don't KNOW what he was suspended for, but you accused Yash and I of overreacting and overstepping our bounds?

Reguardless, how does you plan deter others from doing the same thing? If you think being MADE to publicly appologise is less humiliating than having your infraction announced, i think you are mistaken. I think it took a fair amount of balls for HIM to say, "hey, im sorry, i was a bit out of line, i didn't mean it quite that way." take his lumps without complaint, and come back all cool.

So you think we should collect the evidence, pm the person, tell them not to do it agai n(all of which we already do), THEN we should publicly make them humiliate themselves like some errant child by telling everyone what they did wrong, THEN, AFTER he is warned, humiliates himself, he's Banned for WEEK?? and you think somehow all that is less sever than reminding everyone to read the Code of conduct, warning him privately and publicly to watch himself, and suspendign him for 24-48 hours with a simple statement that he/she was suspended and why?

To me, your way is far more harsh and humilliateing and likely to drive someone totally away than a quick slap on the wrist, a visit to time out, and a return like nothing happened. As long as it doesn't happen again. Persoanlly I don't have the time or te energy to MAKE someone appologise in their own thread, or try to remember to bring them back in a week. Assuming they care to come back in a week and aren't looking to get even with someone...


You really don't know what we do behind the scenes before suspending someone, though we have described it in multiple posts. Which I'm sure you've read to better bolster your position. Try to at least argue with facts and specifics instead of trying to piss me off with accusations and challanges. :wink:

[mushrat]

Cymptom: they do, bt not everyone actually gives an email they use very often. And again, we lose the deterrent factor. If One guy getting smacked keeps two others from having to BE smacked...I'd say that a good thing cause that's 2 less people me,yash,tang, and evans have to figure out what to do about.


Ion: thats what this person claimed, linked me to an obit and everything in Deleware, where they were set up i think, could be wrong....

[mushrat]

Oh, one more thing. This method was worked out by the 4 of us early on. It works well enough, it's simple, straight foreward, and can be fairly evenly applied. It's not going to actually change any time soon. Want to avoid having a "vacation" notice, follow the very simple rules. Don't like it, don't post.

But that doesn't mean we can't talk about it.

[mgcsinc]

I haven't been here for very long, but I just wanted to contribute my 2 cents to this conversation. For the record, I don't disagree in principle with the method that is used to suspend members, public notice and all - in fact, here it seemed to have exactly the desired effect. I did want to say something about this specific instance though. I think a huge amount of the problem that came with his contribution was a kind of cultural miscommunication. I can tell you that in the case of at least a couple of the posts by him that were eventually the subject of scrutiny or deletion, I was really confused about what was wrong with them. Not because I didn't mind him being mean, but because I think there was an honest miscommunication where he really did mean to be nice and respectful. Sometimes it seems like my generation uses 'fuck' or 'shit' in a way that others can't understand, and I know that some of contexts that he used those words in would have been greeted on my campus with laughter rather than suspicion. In the end, my advice would be this: because of the potential for misinterpretation of a member's comments by a minority that happens to include one or two of the mods, I think it might be a good idea to see a little more user input about whether someone is actually being disrespectful.

(the name of the individual was edited out of this and all the other posts in this thread by Mushrat to allow him to get past this already without having his name dragged around again.)

[Lakemonster]

LB..... I announce banning at my site as well.... its not to humiliate....

Lets say the admins decided to ban someone and never told a soul. When it was found out thru a chain of emails later to the forum members, there would be some that found that non-disclosure= "clandestine motives"

When admin actions are made public. It shows you that they are have nothing to hide and are working purely interperetationof the established "code"

[mushrat]

I'd rather keep individual's name out of this, as it keeps dragging their name back to the public eye when I've gone through a lot of trouble to show all is forgiven and that that person can get on with it already...it was only 24 hours after all.

What we had was a series of non-contributing, meaningless, distracting posts that were taking away from a really cool post about making a foil funnel bowl. The posts were insulting to people trying to post on the topic. He also made it quite clear that drugs were LIKELY involved in his behavior. The individual was 1st warned by an Admin. to watch himself, to which he made a smart ass remark to the Admin. That SERIES of events, not simply his use of FUCK etc. that got him 24 hours of being unable to post.

May of you are focusing on the what you think got this person suspended, but aren't listening to what ACTUALLY got him suspended.

And no, we arent going to ask for input from everyone else before suspending someone. The rules are pretty clear.

[mushrat]

Oh yes, one more thing....The individual we are talking about specificly doesn't SEEM to think we were out of line. Didn't make a fuss about being suspended, even appologised and the unexpected result was that got his suspension shortened. He's un-suspended and can speak for himself now. He's welcome to tell us we were unfair, but I get the idea from the posts he made though tobes account that he realized he'd been a bit out of line and took the results without complaint.

Props to him.

[Vinson]

Meh, everyone just needs to take a big puff of Tangiers super mega head funk and relax. This is a forum and we are here for one reason. To give props to other hookah smokers. If you want to be racist or curse or put your little voodoo black magic spells on other members from across the country, I'm pretty sure they have forums for that too

Mushrat and the other admins are doing a great job keeping this forum up and running with minimal problems. Great work, admins.

Just my two cents,
-Vinny

[Sonthert]

Well, I can behind that idea!

Sorry I've been otherwise occupied for the past five days.

Walter, I respect you immensely. If you don't know that, know it now. I'm glad you started this thread. *I think it belongs elsewhere(like forum suggestions). If you are thinking this, then other people are thinking it.

You didn't add my name to the list. I 100% support Yash and Mushy. If you want to ask about their behavior, you need to ask about my behavior. Alot of you know me personally, behind the scenes as well as "Sonthert-guy". If the other admins were being unfair or overzealous, I would be the first one to say "Guys, maybe we should chill out." In every case, what's been done has been reasonable. The issue is, alot of stuff is killed within a few hours or even a few minutes of posting. You guys never see the things that are going on behind the scenes. We discuss these things, and I feel that every one of the things that the admins and mods has done has has been absolutely necessary. I choose my words carefully here. Bans are a new thing. They are unfamiliar to us just as much as they are unfamiliar to you older users. The old admin and Adrock are pretty inactive now, but they did similar things, just they never told anybody about them. I think telling others about what we are doing is important, like Lake said, it gives us transparancy. There is no agenda, no secret conspiracy, I assure you. The admins are simply applying rules universally.

Should we publicize the whole process? We could have a police blotter are "LB-post removed from Moderatros are assholes thread." -PM warning.

Should we keep it all secret? What should we change?

[angemonkwj]

Mushrat and the other admins are doing a great job keeping this forum up and running with minimal problems. Great work, admins.

/agree

I'm damn impressed by the way the mods handle things in this forum. i've been on other forums that arent handled like this and can't stand them. publicly announcing the ban is a way to let people know what was done and for how long the ban is in effect for.

I say great job admins! Keep up the good work!!

[[LB]]

thanks for the reply Tang but i actually never started this thread, Mushrat felt it was necessary to blow this whole thing up by making it a seperate thread, making me the author, and make a challenging title to the thread, his decision, not mine.

the reason i didnt put you on the list was because I dont believe that you have been doing anything wrong at all

[yashman19]

]thanks for the reply Tang but i actually never started this thread, Mushrat felt it was necessary to blow this whole thing up by making it a seperate thread, making me the author, and make a challenging title to the thread, his decision, not mine.

the reason i didnt put you on the list was because I dont believe that you have been doing anything wrong at all

Actually, he simply split the topic off where the other thread started to go off topic, and your post happened to be the split point.

Perhaps it could have been moved to a different location since it doesn't really have to do with hookah, but I would have kept it here as well, since it has to do with the forum members as a whole, and this section gets the most views/replies.

[mushrat]

LB: you SHOULD include tang..as I said, we work as a TEAM. I'm the visible hatchet man, but we are ALL involved. so say what you want, but dont forget to include tang and evans in any power trip...

[skiracerj1]

Well I hate to be stepping into the middle of you boys' little tiff here, but I can no longer hold myself back and stay on the sidelines. Everyone just needs to chill out and take a big step back and realise what everyone is arguing about. This is just an internet forum for christ sake, but we make it out to be the most important thing in the world. Everyone has started to take themselves way too serious in the last couple of months. Granted I havent been around for long, but I was here before this paradigm shift, of that I'm sure. Back then it was just simple, civil, and enjoyable discussions about hookah or whatever. Now-a-days its endless quiblling and whining and attacking, and just general bitching. So whats causing this? Well many things, but most noticably is the increased involvment of the moderators. Do I blame the mods for this, no not really, they are merely doing there job, but I feel that its gotten somewhat out of hand. Back when it was just Mr. Bubble things were seemingly more pleasant (at least since I joined) with his more hands off approach to moderating. This goes back to its just an internet forum. The mods should only intervene when someone is being threatened or overly vulgar and coarse language is being used. now you may argue that this is what you mods do, but I feel its a little different. I hate to single you out Mushrat but I feel I must, for you seem to take great pleasure in some of this, and this concerns me. For instance you almost seem to brag about being "the visible hatchet man" and your constant running of "background checks" on members by checking IP numbers is like your almost looking for trouble just so you can flex some muscle and bring them down. Your like a cop who only cares about catching bad guys instead of actually representing the public good and serving your community. If a company comes on here pulling tricks like hookahhookah just lock there threads, let it die and move on. Now then all that said, I have nothing personal against any of the mods, and these are just my views and opinions, but basically I think we all just need to realise this is just a forum, and nothin more, theres no power to be gained, and as far as im concerned a guy with 2 posts should have just as much clout as the mods, which is to say none really.

[yashman19]

If you want to have a forum with virutally no moderator involvment, thats perfectly fine by me. I was nominated, along with the others, because I've been here for quite some time and have stayed here over those years, so I happen to know quite a bit of history of this board. If you want to start a pole asking for peoples opinions and votes on whether or not they'd like to have active moderators patroling the board, that is perfectly fine by me. If they don't want a mod, then who am I to get in their way. I'd be perfectly content to go back to the way things were, and just be another member of this board.

This is just me, and I obvisouly don't speak for Mushrat, Tangiers or Evans. So do what ya gotta do. If you want me out, just say the word and I'll even make the thread.