A Simple Idea, Save The Death Penalty!

[Sonthert]

I watched the "Life of David Gale" the other night which sparked my brain. If you haven't seen the movie, its worth a look. Kevin Spacey is always good.

Those opposed to the death penalty, which I support by the way, is that five times as many blacks and latinos are on death row as whites. They tend to be poor and have to rely on public defenders which are overtaxed and generally do their jobs poorly from lack of resources and time more than anything. What almost everybody on death row has in common is poverty. The simple solution is to get rid of private lawyers and make all people use governement approved lawyers, so that rich and poor alike could get a fair shake, then the death penalty could be continue for years to come and everyone would feel good in that people were getting a fair shake at going over to the pine oil room/hot seat. If everybody used governement lawyers, alot more money would be directed to make the quality of the representation better, since the people with the largest political voice, who tend to be rich, would have to rely on the same services.

Any thoughts?

[Scalliwag]

I actually like that idea alot. Talk about motivation to get a better public defender system. Making all prisons the same would make me happy as well. The same rightwingers that are hardcore against affirmative action as far as college admissions etc., seem to think there needs to be affirmative action in the prison system. They think that the so-called up class need to have a higher standard of living if and when they end up doing time.
The first time a Jeff Skilling got beat to death by another inmate in a hardcore prison would be the best thing that ever happened in the corporate world as far as deterrants.
The first time a well known person was convicted because they had the same sub-par level of representation as poor people wold make for a good wake up call too.

There was a guy that was convicted and given the death penalty whose attorney actually fell asleep during the trial and the rightwing supreme court actually upheld that. http://www.adelante.com/burdine/news/lat010202.html
That story shows just how jacked up our system is. This guy falls asleep which shows there was no way this guy was that concerned about actually doing his job and the republican appointed judges sided with the state.

[Lakemonster]

I believe the >gov lawyer trek would be heavy laden with corruption......... sure its corrupt now... but think abouot how much easer it would be to "kangaroo" court cases.

Trust me, the curent situation isnt great at all... but I just have a hard time finding a solution that is any less free of shenanigans.

[HoOkaHPriiNceSs]

I must say that does sound like a very intelligent idea. I agree with the death penalty to an extent but i 100% agree with everyone being treated fairly. Whether they are rich or poor, if they have committed a crime worthy of the death sentence then they should all be allotted the same chances of survival.

[Scalliwag]

I must say that does sound like a very intelligent idea. I agree with the death penalty to an extent but i 100% agree with everyone being treated fairly. Whether they are rich or poor, if they have committed a crime worthy of the death sentence then they should all be allotted the same chances of survival.

"Fairly" is the key word. In other threads a lot of people felt as though if 1 out of every 100 people executed were innocent that it is better than the 99 guilty not. I personally would like the people that feel that way have that experience a little more up close and personal to them to see if it would be okay then but.....
Things do not get fixed until those that are okay with the status-quo get their cages shook really hard. The Civil Rights movement is a perfect example. People had to stir up a lot of shit to get it on the front page because the shit they lived with day to day was ignored otherwise.
A lot of things that get bad mouthed later like unions are another example. Unions were formed because people would get killed on dangerous assembly lines and bullshit conditions because a lot of big business people with Enron mentalities created the atmoshpere for rebellion. They were not going to fix things themselves. To top that off when people did try and form unions the brass hired thugs to lick their asses and sometimes kill them.
So the mob offered "protection" and given the options and anger they accepted. Things did get bad and they got ugly but sometimes you have to look at the events that led to the current situation.

Trial lawyers get a bad name but let's be honest, do you really think corporations do the right thing when something goes wrong or do you think they have to be dragged kicking and screaming when they are guilty as hell?
When Charles Rangel talks about reinstating the draft you may look at the reasoning. The man was involved in the Civil Rights movement. He knows that a lot of people support the war but sure as hell do not want their kids in it and some that avoided previous wars when there was a draft are even hypocritical now about it.
Sometimes people need their ass handed to them in order to get change. As long as it is poor minorities getting really bad representation there are a lot of elitists that see this as no problem so there never is any action.

If repubs would have won the election I do not think Rummy would be out and that there would not be anything changing because GW would have taken it as a referendum that he was doing a great job. So a good cage rattling can get even the most stubborn peoples attention.

[DarthHookah]

everyone is looking for the perfect system, but the problem is this- the system is designed and operated and populated by humans, and because of our very nature, it will not be a perfect system. unless you want it to be operated and maintained by machines, and have our lives dicated by them (some would argue that it is that way right now, but im talking on a much larger scale) we are going to have to accept imperfections. you guys keep looking for Utopia, ill be here in cincinatti (cincinnati? yes, i think cincinnati is right). Edited December 29, 2006 by DarthHookah

[Scalliwag]

I don't think anyone is expecting a perfect world, some just know that in order to get changes that there needs to be action. Like I mentioned earlier about the Civil rights movement, this place would still be like living in the 50's with separate drinking fountains and schools, etc. if people just sat back. Some people still today would be okay with that.
I am not black but a lot of people that were not black were out there marching with those that were because they knew the status quo was bullshit.
You may not get perfection but you shoot for it or else you get nothing done. If you set your goals very high you may not get everything you want but you will probably get a lot closer than if you just sit back and say "oh well, that's the way it is".

If you were the innocent guy sitting in a prison cell you would have a much different view I can assure you. All of the sudden you would experience a strong sense of motivation.

[Cacaoatl]

The major problem with the death penalty is that it is never applied equally. Studies have shown that what is a death penalty crime in one state might be a life sentence in another state. Whether or not you are sentenced to death can depend on factors as widely varied as city, state, race, economic status, zip code, or even a particular a.d.a's personal biases. Even the assistant district attorney prosecuting your case havingv a headache could affect the outcome of the sentencing process.

The major flaw in Sonthert's proposal is this: most people don't trust the government to deliver the mail, why the hell should they trust the government to be able to defend a person in court or decide who lives and who dies. The other flaw with nationalizing the legal defense system is that the government would never offer the type of competive salaries that would attract the most talented lawyers. Lawyers, like other profesionals will work for whomever rewards them the most for their talent. What incentive would there be for the nation's top lawyers to want to work for the government? Why work for the government at say $80000 a year when you can work for a private practice for say twice that?

The only equitable solution to the death penalty is to remove it from the table. It is an outmoded form of punishment.
The death penalty may have been valid at one time -- when few societies had the resources to house large number of prisoners. In the United States we have more than adequate resources to house our worst offenders for the rest of their lives. Edited January 18, 2007 by Cacaoatl

[Sonthert]

The major problem with the death penalty is that it is never applied equally. Studies have shown that what is a death penalty crime in one state might be a life sentence in another state. Whether or not you are sentenced to death can depend on factors as widely varied as city, state, race, economic status, zip code, or even a particular a.d.a's personal biases. Even the assistant district attorney prosecuting your case havingv a headache could affect the outcome of the sentencing process.

The major flaw in Sonthert's proposal is this: most people don't trust the government to deliver the mail, why the hell should they trust the government to be able to defend a person in court or decide who lives and who dies. The other flaw with nationalizing the legal defense system is that the government would never offer the type of competive salaries that would attract the most talented lawyers. Lawyers, like other profesionals will work for whomever rewards them the most for their talent. What incentive would there be for the nation's top lawyers to want to work for the government? Why work for the government at say $80000 a year when you can work for a private practice for say twice that?

The only equitable solution to the death penalty is to remove it from the table. It is an outmoded form of punishment.
The death penalty may have been valid at one time -- when few societies had the resources to house large number of prisoners. In the United States we have more than adequate resources to house our worst offenders for the rest of their lives.

How is the death penalty outmoded? The death penalty will only be outmoded when people stop dying or widespread resurrections predominate.

The point of my ranting was that we continue to increase the number of criminals entering prison, so we need more jail space, its not a question of having the resources, its a question of not wanting to utilize the resources on housing all those prisoners.

You are correct, why would you work for the government if you can work in private practice? The point is doing away with private practice lawyers. There are way, way too mant as it is. People would practice law becuase they wanted to, not because it was a big paycheck. People, empirically speaking, who select a job based on how much it pays, tend to perform more poorly at their jobs than people who do their jobs because its their interest/passion. Good example: bartenders. Modern bartenders are, by and large, make drinks poorly and inconsistently without a basic understanding. Go to a fine establishment and you will find that the bartenders work far more slowly, but have a larger storehouse of legatimate recipes in their head and make more consistent drinks. Most dance club bartenders couldn't last a day in that environment. People, in California, want to be bartenders because they make minimum wage plus tips which often amount to $200-$500 per night. Waiters at high tipping, dance-club district restaurants tend to provide poor service.

Lawyers would be no exception, but if all lawyers were publicized, people would began to see the problems in the system and want to make sure that adequate money was spent to keep the system up. This is why the opposite, privatization, is so corrosive to public institutions. For instance, in terms of schools, the richest people send their children to private schools and then oppose increases in taxes to help public schools.

An alternative would be to standardize all lawyer's salaries...a poor alternative becuase lawyers would then do as little work as possible to get theat paycheck.