Arm Them.... And Let Them Shoot.

[Lakemonster]

This has gone too far. Forget a wall.

We need mines, snipers, gun nests and gunships. Wheres Woodrow Wilson when you need him?

Armed men cross border from Mexico, confront Guardsmen

http://kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=5893881&nav=HMO6HMaW

National Guard troops positioned along the border in the Tucson sector experienced a first of its kind ordeal Wednesday night: an aggressive encounter with people crossing over from Mexico.

It happened in a remote area in the west desert named Fresnal Peak. That's near Sasabe.

The Guardsmen are on the border to free-up overburdened Border Patrol agents, build fences and watch for illegal activity -- something some saw clearly Wednesday night.

All is peaceful now along the U.S./Mexico border, but it was a much different story Wednesday night around 11:00 p.m. when a group of armed men confronted National Guard soldiers.

Agent Jim Hawkins said, "The weapons that these individuals were carrying were in plain view. The National Guard soldiers were aware that the individuals were armed and were approaching their position."

The encounter happened near Sasabe at an entry identification sight.

Shots were never fired and no one was injured, but border officials say the approaching men were aggressive, but then they went back in to Mexico.

Hawkins said, "We're still trying to determine how close the individuals came and if they exactly there were any interactions with the Guard and the individuals."

The Guard has been on the border for about eight months, giving residents like Hunter and Nora Nash an added sense of security.

Hunter said, "I'm happy that the Guard is here. I'm really pleased and I thank them."

And Nora said, "I still feel safe, but it's a little unnerving when you hear that this has gone on. I've been afraid of something like this happening, but I'm glad that the Guard is here."

The Border Patrol has dealt with armed encounters before, but Wednesday night's was the first time for the National Guard in the Tucson Sector.

Hawkins said, "We have, in the past, seen armed individuals in military garb come across the border, sometimes even engage Border Patrol agents."

It's just another example of the dangers along the border that agents face, and now, it seems, the National Guard as well.

Mexican authorities have been made aware of the incursion and a number of agencies are investigating.

Edited January 5, 2007 by Lakemonster

[tingjunkie]

This has gone too far. Forget a wall.

We need mines, snipers, gun nests and gunships. Wheres Woodrow Wilson when you need him?

Yeah, poor people and their families are trying to come here and do the jobs that none of us want to do, so they can have a better life. Let's just start killing 'em!

I hope that comment was a joke Lakemonster, even if a poor one. Unless you are an American Indian, no one has the right to say jack shit about Mexicans crossing the border, because your family came here for the exact same reasons. And now you want to put land mines and shit to stop them? WTF?

And remember, there's a difference between the National Guard (an official government sponsored group of peace keepers) and the "Guardsmen" (a good ol' boys gun club for freightened rednecks who think they're cowboys). That article fails to make the distinction. [I later corrected this mistake, I was thinking of the Minutemen when I wrote this post. My apologies.]

I know you are a regular on this board, and I am a newbie, but "Arm them... and let them shoot?" You are way out of line here. Edited January 9, 2007 by tingjunkie

[Lakemonster]

I respect your opinion.

The article talks about ARMED personnel crossing the border with an aggressive posture.

So. in that type of context.. yes, I think they have the right to shoot aggressive invaders.

As for women and children coming for a better life...... doing jobs I wont do. I have a different opinion.

I lost MY job years ago, framing construction, because an inexperienced Mexican would do it for $2 less an hour. I wanted that job, I needed that job. I was worth the money. I wasnt getting rich doing it either.

Maybe I should have gone down on my hourly rates? Why? So i can be supported by welfare programs as well?

Where will I go to get a "better life" when the SHTF? They are coming here at MY COST.

BTW..... I do have enough blood to get a Bureau Number. Chickasaw and Cherokee mix. I never did.... I know what I am and I dont need to suck off the system that way either. So maybe I do have the right to say they cant cross.

A big question is.... why should coming here be the solution? If its so bad down there, why dont they change it? All I have seen is a corrupt government swayed by drug lords. Why dont they correct such things and promote a better economy based on legal ventures? Maybe its just EASIER to fleece the US..... and becasue something is easier... it hardly makes it right.

[Scalliwag]

while I sympathize with most illegals and understand why they want to come here I am behind Lake on this. When people from another country come over armed I view that as a threat and I think they should be shot if they threaten in any way. Anyone that would come in by that method is not one of the type of people that would be willing to work those jobs others here would not do. They are the kind of people to commit crimes and steal social security numbers.
I vote shoot them and don't lose any sleep over it.

[EDIT] BTW I think anyone armed and being a threat to authorities should be shot, including US citizens. Go to Mexico wielding a gun and see how fast the federales there bust a cap in that arse Edited January 6, 2007 by Scalliwag

[rattler]

Then again we won this land fair and square in a war. Don't like it? tough luck. Under your theory US citizens should voluntarily give ourselves back to England? Israel should give their land back to the Arabs? I don't think so. I also don't think Lake was saying that the national guard should shoot unarmed people crossing the border, but armed combatants. You do realize that armed citizens from another country coming over the border is a attack on the US? A sign of aggression? A sign of war?

Lake I live in Arizona and agree with your statement 100%! The people in military garb with weapons from Mexico are drug smugglers and NOT simply people coming over for jobs. They have actually used a tank in one case! My info on the tank was gotten from the Yuma daily sun when I lived there. The incident was witnessed by 2 border patrol agents and several citizens. It is time to fight back.

We should not however put mines along the border. Mines have no use for any civilized country. Most countries in the world have signed a agreement to ban their usage. The US was not part of the agreement. However we can witness the damage these damn things do anywhere they have been used worldwide even 40 years after the war has ended the kill and maim. The last thing we need to be doing is burying these damn things in our own soil so that sometime in the future our own nations kids can end up crippled.

[tingjunkie]

OK Lakemonster, if you were only referring to the small few who crossed over armed and tangled with the Guardsmen, then I can agree with you. Your original sentiments seemed much broader than that, and that bothered me. I have been to Mexico many times, and I have many Mexican friends (who are warm, hard-working, generous people) and it pains me when I hear people talk about Mexicans as though they were sub-human, or their lives are worth less than ours.

I used to live in New Mexico, so I am not unaware of the complexity of the issues at hand. I was just taken aback by how reactionary your initial statements seemed before you explained yourself. I now understand it was just miscommunication.

As for this statement: "A big question is.... why should coming here be the solution? If its so bad down there, why dont they change it? All I have seen is a corrupt government swayed by drug lords. Why dont they correct such things and promote a better economy based on legal ventures? Maybe its just EASIER to fleece the US..... and becasue something is easier... it hardly makes it right."

I think you are oversimplifying the issues. If it was that easy to change a corrupt government, then the world would have far less problems. The average Mexican citizen isn't much different than the average American when it comes to basic desires about wanting to have a decent quality of life. Pretending like it is easy for them to change their system is like saying it should have been easy to prevent the U.S. involvement in Iraq... Americans (and people all over the world) protested that war in massive numbers, and it didn't change a thing. Poor and middle class people all over the world should be banding together to topple the corrupt elitist goverments that don't care about their citizens, not tearing eachother down. The people who cross over our boarders are not our enemies- it's the corrupt politicians and drug lords they are running from that we should be fighting against. Edited January 6, 2007 by tingjunkie

[tingjunkie]

Then again we won this land fair and square in a war.

Sorry rattler, you are off here too. We didn't win this land in a war. We stole it in a campaign of genocide which involved deceit, treachery, and underhanded moves like giving away blankets to Indians which were purposely infected with small pox. There was nothing fair about how we stole this land. It's not like Indians came to Europe and attacked, and we retalliated. Europeans invaded America, raped, plundered, and nearly destroyed an entire race of people. Get it straight.

[rattler]

Then again we won this land fair and square in a war.

Sorry rattler, you are off here too. We didn't win this land in a war. We stole it in a campaign of genocide which involved deceit, treachery, and underhanded moves like giving away blankets to Indians which were purposely infected with small pox. There was nothing fair about how we stole this land. It's not like Indians came to Europe and attacked, and we retalliated. Europeans invaded America, raped, plundered, and nearly destroyed an entire race of people. Get it straight.

If we really must discuss Genocide we should concentrate on what is happening now in Darfur, Sudan, Chad, and Burma currently. We can actually do something to help in these cases. The past is the past.
Oh and btw war is declared all the time without it bieng a retalitory move or a mutual affair. That's life and war sucks.
You do realize that many Native Americans are just as upset by the Mexican ILLEGAL imagration as those of us who are of European descent?


Lake...Funny you were a framer. I was too. I was a member of UBC, were you? Last time I tried to get a job framing (in Yuma Az) I was offered $7.50 a hour...LOL...I won't even bother getting up in the morning for that, because I can't support my family. Granted it was a non-union gig so I would expect to make some less than I did for the union but that's way to much less.

[djbomberto]

well if you get an "Education" why would you worry about losing your jobs to Mexicans? Mexicans are very willing to do manual labor for cheap! i say let them do it. That should push people to get off their ass and get a Education.

[Hangin10]

Why not just annex Mexico already! Geez. We conquered it before, but we... gave it back?

[rattler]

well if you get an "Education" why would you worry about losing your jobs to Mexicans? Mexicans are very willing to do manual labor for cheap! i say let them do it. That should push people to get off their ass and get a Education.

Ah shucks I guess I better go back and get a masters degree even though I have a Bachelors degree. I choose to work in a blue collar trade as most in my family have done because I enjoy it.

Your also forgetting all the other ramafacations that the illegal immagration is bringing. I suppose you do not mind your medical bills being jacked up due to uninsured illegals utelizing the american medical system? I guess you do not mind that across the south west (and coming to all of the US if the trend continues) emergency rooms are begining to close down due to lack of profitability...they simply may not be there when your family needs them.
Your taxes must be elevated to pay for them. (remember they are illegal and do not pay taxxes). They send thier kids to public schools(jacking up taxxes) they collect foodstamps and wellfare (jacking up taxxes).
You could remedy the situation by legalizing them...but then again there goes the cheap labor rate (they do the work cheaper now because of no taxxes accesed on the employer), but then our wellfare system will take a real hit because they are unprepared to compete on a fair playing field with the American worker who is educated. There goes the social security sytem as well.

I'm sorry I do not live by other's idealistic views that we can welcome the criminals into our country(remember each illegal commits a felony in the process of coming into the US) and recognize the we as a country are unable to support the nation of mexico. Yes thier quality of living may improve, but your quality of life will fall just as much to balance it out.

[djbomberto]

well if you get an "Education" why would you worry about losing your jobs to Mexicans? Mexicans are very willing to do manual labor for cheap! i say let them do it. That should push people to get off their ass and get a Education.

Ah shucks I guess I better go back and get a masters degree even though I have a Bachelors degree. I choose to work in a blue collar trade as most in my family have done because I enjoy it.

Your also forgetting all the other ramafacations that the illegal immagration is bringing. I suppose you do not mind your medical bills being jacked up due to uninsured illegals utelizing the american medical system? I guess you do not mind that across the south west (and coming to all of the US if the trend continues) emergency rooms are begining to close down due to lack of profitability...they simply may not be there when your family needs them.
Your taxes must be elevated to pay for them. (remember they are illegal and do not pay taxxes). They send thier kids to public schools(jacking up taxxes) they collect foodstamps and wellfare (jacking up taxxes).
You could remedy the situation by legalizing them...but then again there goes the cheap labor rate (they do the work cheaper now because of no taxxes accesed on the employer), but then our wellfare system will take a real hit because they are unprepared to compete on a fair playing field with the American worker who is educated. There goes the social security sytem as well.

I'm sorry I do not live by other's idealistic views that we can welcome the criminals into our country(remember each illegal commits a felony in the process of coming into the US) and recognize the we as a country are unable to support the nation of mexico. Yes thier quality of living may improve, but your quality of life will fall just as much to balance it out.

For a person who has a Bachelors degree kinda doing alot of typo's eah lol......



you know, people dont really complain about Mexicans coming over. The big deal is that many Terrorist are getting Mexican ID's and adopting Hispanic names. Shocking eah?

http://www.jfednepa.org/mark%20silverberg/open_borders.html

[art_official]

well if you get an "Education" why would you worry about losing your jobs to Mexicans? Mexicans are very willing to do manual labor for cheap! i say let them do it. That should push people to get off their ass and get a Education.

get AN education not a education.
you use "an" if it is followed by a word with a vowel.
"a" if it is followed by a word with a consonent

hows that for education.

[rattler]

For a person who has a Bachelors degree kinda doing alot of typo's eah lol......



you know, people dont really complain about Mexicans coming over. The big deal is that many Terrorist are getting Mexican ID's and adopting Hispanic names. Shocking eah?

http://www.jfednepa.org/mark%20silverberg/open_borders.html

Oops sorry for the typos. proper spelling and grammar were not very necessary for my major. Wildlife Biology. I had delusions of grandeur. They tell you you can be anything you want to be with a education. I wanted to work for the Idaho fish and game as a big game biologist. My college degree made me a more rounded person, but it failed to give me access to the job I wanted anywhere that I would live.

They don't complain about illegals? Clearly your not from Texas, New Mexico, Arizona or southern California! Even the legal immigrants do not want illegals coming over. There is a right way and a wrong way to immigrate to the USA. We should not choose to reward those who fail to comply with our laws.

[art_official]

Then again we won this land fair and square in a war.

Sorry rattler, you are off here too. We didn't win this land in a war. We stole it in a campaign of genocide which involved deceit, treachery, and underhanded moves like giving away blankets to Indians which were purposely infected with small pox. There was nothing fair about how we stole this land. It's not like Indians came to Europe and attacked, and we retalliated. Europeans invaded America, raped, plundered, and nearly destroyed an entire race of people. Get it straight.

is there anywhere that says, how to fairly take land from a race of people who have owned the land since the begining of time? no. but thats how it happend and its in the past, your over it nothing you can change. the government has already more than spoiled the people who lost the country. sure theres no price you can give to redeem what they did but look at how most natives are: spoiled brats living off of checks in the mail. i know native american kids that dont go to school knowing they have fat checks coming right when they turn 18.

[tingjunkie]

Then again we won this land fair and square in a war.

Sorry rattler, you are off here too. We didn't win this land in a war. We stole it in a campaign of genocide which involved deceit, treachery, and underhanded moves like giving away blankets to Indians which were purposely infected with small pox. There was nothing fair about how we stole this land. It's not like Indians came to Europe and attacked, and we retalliated. Europeans invaded America, raped, plundered, and nearly destroyed an entire race of people. Get it straight.

is there anywhere that says, how to fairly take land from a race of people who have owned the land since the begining of time? no. but thats how it happend and its in the past, your over it nothing you can change. the government has already more than spoiled the people who lost the country. sure theres no price you can give to redeem what they did but look at how most natives are: spoiled brats living off of checks in the mail. i know native american kids that dont go to school knowing they have fat checks coming right when they turn 18.

"is there anywhere that says, how to fairly take land from a race of people who have owned the land since the begining of time?"

No, there is no rule book because YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO DO IT AT ALL!!!!!

"the government has already more than spoiled the people who lost the country. sure theres no price you can give to redeem what they did but look at how most natives are: spoiled brats living off of checks in the mail."

It always amazes me how brave people become on forums when they are safe typing away at home. Never in a million years would you get the balls to say that to any American Indian face-to-face.

I always wondered how attrocities like the holocaust or Darfur could happen. Now I see exactly the kind of ignorance and lack of human empathy required to commit such acts. Thanks for enlightening me. Edited January 8, 2007 by tingjunkie

[opinari]

I'd swear that I live in the boonies some times... Though Lake Havasu is my home, and I read the news daily, there was no mention of this incident in local news. CNN made outsourced references to such, however they had no actual report of their own (that I found). How disappointing.

[rattler]

"is there anywhere that says, how to fairly take land from a race of people who have owned the land since the begining of time?"

No, there is no rule book because YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO DO IT AT ALL!!!!!

"the government has already more than spoiled the people who lost the country. sure theres no price you can give to redeem what they did but look at how most natives are: spoiled brats living off of checks in the mail."

It always amazes me how brave people become on forums when they are safe typing away at home. Never in a million years would you get the balls to say that to any American Indian face-to-face.

I always wondered how attrocities like the holocaust or Darfur could happen. Now I see exactly the kind of ignorance and lack of human empathy required to commit such acts. Thanks for enlightening me.

And nobody alive today is responible for having taken the the USA from anyone who is alive today, so why should we feel any guilt since we are not the ones who commited the wrongs? Should a 20 year old German feel guilt because Germans killed my relatives in Poland during the halucaust? No because they are not the ones responsible.
But comparing what is done to illegal immagrants into the USA today to what went on during the formative years of this country or the halocaust or Darfur is like comparing apples to cement. It's not even in the same ballpark. We do not kill illegal immagrants today, we simply ship them back to where they came from, usually after having feed them. Your comparisions would seem more accurate if indeed we were practicing Genocide against hispanic people. But we are not, in fact we welcome thousands of hispanics into our country legally every year.

[Lakemonster]

I dunno guys....

The "World Love" some of you have appears very jaded.

I dont hate Mexicans...... I hate that many of them are coming here without the least bit of respect for our laws or system.

1st they break the lawby jumping the fence. Usually they are packing some dope to sell to get some start up cash when they get here. Thats crime #2

The first place they go is the welfare office.... to fleece off of you and I.

Then for some strange reason, the more illegals we get.... the more crime goes up.... and not proportionately either.

Did you know that illegal aliens win the award for the most sex offenders in the population? They have highest in child molestation offenders with the victims averaging 6 YEARS OLD..... and in most cases RAPED as well? 6 percent of those were MUTILATED.http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=50441

We arent having this large, nay huge, amount of this sick behaviour with other race groups.

They want to come here and have all the benefit without having to pay our PRICES. They do not want to pay our taxes, Keep their money here in the community to stimulate local growth, they disrespect laws and exploit the system.

They dont want to be a PART of this country.... they just want part of it.

[tingjunkie]

But comparing what is done to illegal immagrants into the USA today to what went on during the formative years of this country or the halocaust or Darfur is like comparing apples to cement. It's not even in the same ballpark. We do not kill illegal immagrants today, we simply ship them back to where they came from, usually after having feed them. Your comparisions would seem more accurate if indeed we were practicing Genocide against hispanic people. But we are not, in fact we welcome thousands of hispanics into our country legally every year.

I wasn't comparing the situation with Mexicans crossing the border to the rest of those things, I was comparing what we did to American Indians to the holocaust and Darfur. Which is comparing genocide to genocide. The conversation had moved on.

Your defensiveness already belies the feelings of guilt you have for the situation, however, I wasn't saying we should feel guilty. I am saying we should be sensitive and empathetic towards the long reaching effects of past actions which play out today. In simpler words, the attrocities of past generations do not simply evaporate when people die- the effects are passed on to new generations. Saying it's all in the past and therefore we shouldn't care anymore, is completely foolish.

[rattler]

Lake there is some really startling figures in your link.

22% of victims of sexual crimes by illegal immigrants are physically or mentally handicapped!
93 sex offenders and 12 serial sexual offenders coming across U.S. borders illegally per day!
victimization numbers around 960,000!!!!!!!

It's time to lock down the borders. Now!

[tingjunkie]

Did you know that illegal aliens win the award for the most sex offenders in the population? They have highest in child molestation offenders with the victims averaging 6 YEARS OLD..... and in most cases RAPED as well? 6 percent of those were MUTILATED.http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=50441

We arent having this large, nay huge, amount of this sick behaviour with other race groups.

I read the article Lakemonster, and I have to say the results are sketchy at best. I have a degree in psychology, which means I have taken many courses in statistics and understand how studies like this work. The article does not mention how they sampled the population, what methods they used, etc, etc, etc. It's just really flimsy science.

This is probably the most telling statement in the article... "based on a figure of 12 million illegal immigrants and the fact that more of this population is male than average, sex offenders among illegals make up a higher percentage than offenders in the general population."

If you take ANY population which is disproportionatly male, and compare it to a population which has equal distribution of the sexes, then you will find a higher percentage of sex offenders- it is because of the gender, not the race. Put simply, women don't molest children nearly as often as men do. The conclusion that race is correlated with frequency is completely false.

Between this article and the first article you posted that confused the Guardsmen with the National Guard, I think it's time to find a more professional, more reliable source for your news. Edited January 8, 2007 by tingjunkie

[rattler]

Well your post above explains allot.

First off...Someone who is a member of the National Guard is called what?...A Guardsman. There is no confusion in the article written up by KVOA news.

Secondly...I doubt a person with a Psychology degree has quite as much statistical analysis training as a Wildlife biologist...Simply put I was trained to put population statistacs to use in herd management. You have to be able to differentiate the actual meaning of statistics even if they are somewhat flawed in you view. These statistics are significant even though the male population outranks the female population. Regardless of the population makeup the illegal population is having a statisticly signifigant impact on crime statistics in the US, Particulrly in the 4 states they tend to live in.

Thirdly...I refuse to argue with you anymore than I already have. I know realize that it seems your sole purpose in this conversation is to be argumentative and to not listen to both sides of the argument. I think we have done so for you have we not?

We are not white racist pigs who hate Mexicans. Painting us as such is inaccurate at best. We are simply people who are concerned about the well being of our country. I bet some us of us are not even Caucasian. I know I'm not when I fill out the census form.

Borders...Language...Culture...The things that define and hold a country together. Today they are being trashed by illegal immigration.

I'm a proud member of the Savage Nation and the Paul Revere Society.

Peace Out.

[Lakemonster]

Perhaps he was thinking of the Minutemen.

[tingjunkie]

Perhaps he was thinking of the Minutemen.

Yes, you are right. I was thinking of the Minutemen. My apologies to all (especially Lake) on that issue. I stand corrected. Edited January 9, 2007 by tingjunkie