Arm Them.... And Let Them Shoot.

[rattler]

Perhaps he was thinking of the Minutemen.

Yes, you are right. I was thinking of the Minutemen. My apologies to all on that issue. I stand corrected.

Minutemen are a totally different issue. I have a friend who is a member of that group, but I'm still not sure what I think about them. Dressing up in camo and packing military weapons while hanging out in the desert looking for illegals to capture and turn over to the border patrol is not my idea of a good time I also suspect things could get out of hand pretty easily with such a group if they were confronted by armed individuals, though so far it has been a non-issue. Personally I think it is time our goverment trains volunteers who wish to do what the Minutemen are doing...In fact in the past there has been talk of doing just that but I don't know whatever came of it.

[tingjunkie]

Well your post above explains allot.

First off...Someone who is a member of the National Guard is called what?...A Guardsman. There is no confusion in the article written up by KVOA news.

Secondly...I doubt a person with a Psychology degree has quite as much statistical analysis training as a Wildlife biologist...Simply put I was trained to put population statistacs to use in herd management. You have to be able to differentiate the actual meaning of statistics even if they are somewhat flawed in you view. These statistics are significant even though the male population outranks the female population. Regardless of the population makeup the illegal population is having a statisticly signifigant impact on crime statistics in the US, Particulrly in the 4 states they tend to live in.

Thirdly...I refuse to argue with you anymore than I already have. I know realize that it seems your sole purpose in this conversation is to be argumentative and to not listen to both sides of the argument. I think we have done so for you have we not?

We are not white racist pigs who hate Mexicans. Painting us as such is inaccurate at best. We are simply people who are concerned about the well being of our country. I bet some us of us are not even Caucasian. I know I'm not when I fill out the census form.

Borders...Language...Culture...The things that define and hold a country together. Today they are being trashed by illegal immigration.

I'm a proud member of the Savage Nation and the Paul Revere Society.

Peace Out.

I doubt a person with a Psychology degree has quite as much statistical analysis training as a Wildlife biologist...Simply put I was trained to put population statistacs to use in herd management. You have to be able to differentiate the actual meaning of statistics even if they are somewhat flawed in you view. These statistics are significant even though the male population outranks the female population. Regardless of the population makeup the illegal population is having a statisticly signifigant impact on crime statistics in the US, Particulrly in the 4 states they tend to live in.

Well no, I did get a lot of statistical analysis training...training which was specifically aimed at dealing with human populations, and not herds of animals. I was not arguing that the illegal immigrant population does not have any effect on crime in the US, of course it does. I was just pointing out that the way in which the information was presented was very biased and flawed. I also wanted to point out that Lakemonster's conclusion that Mexicans (even illegals) are worse than other races when it comes to sexual assault was incorrect. If you know about statistics and how to interpret them, you will know that this is not a matter of opinion, but a fact. If you were to compare a large populaton of 75% men to an equally large population of 50% men, then the population with more males will always contain more sex offenders- regardles of being white, brown, purple, or pink.

I refuse to argue with you anymore than I already have. I know realize that it seems your sole purpose in this conversation is to be argumentative and to not listen to both sides of the argument. I think we have done so for you have we not?

Difference of opinion I guess. Just because we don't see eye to eye doesn't mean that either one of us is necessarily being argumentative. I have only been stating my opinions, and pointing out facts when I can.

We are not white racist pigs who hate Mexicans. Painting us as such is inaccurate at best.

I really don't feel that I have painted you as anything. I've simply been stating my opinions, and responding to the opinions of others. If I had wanted to label you as a specific type of person I would have done so directly. I don't mince words. Perhaps you are saying this because there is some transferance going on?

transferance -noun
2 : the redirection of feelings and desires and especially of those unconsciously retained from childhood toward a new object (as a psychoanalyst conducting therapy) http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=transference

I'm a proud member of the Savage Nation and the Paul Revere Society.

I'm sorry, I'm not very familliar with these groups. Please explain how this fits in to the issues we are talking about.

Although this debate has been heated at times, I hope you will continue it. I'm sure we can make some more progress. Edited January 9, 2007 by tingjunkie

[art_official]

"is there anywhere that says, how to fairly take land from a race of people who have owned the land since the begining of time?"


No, there is no rule book because YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO DO IT AT ALL!!!!!


sure the moral ethics of it sound wrong, but there is not one single country which exists right now that does not have that event in their history, that is how man works and that is how it will always will be
[/b]
It always amazes me how brave people become on forums when they are safe typing away at home. Never in a million years would you get the balls to say that to any American Indian face-to-face.

I have no problem saying how i feel in a respectful manner to anyone- face to face, or on the internet.

I always wondered how attrocities like the holocaust or Darfur could happen. Now I see exactly the kind of ignorance and lack of human empathy required to commit such acts. Thanks for enlightening me.

Im not saying that i accept genocides, or that i support the killing of native americans, im just stating what has happend in history. Your own ignorance hits you in the face by just skipping over what i have said without even thinking about it. There are some people who listen, and there are others who just wait to speak. Try listening sometime. I am a practicing Jew, and the presence of genocides going on in my time hurts me just as much as the next human being, regardless if i am a realist to historical facts or not.

[rattler]

Paul Revere Society

The Savage Nation

It has to do with what we were discussing because the Paul Revere Society mission statement pretty well sums up my feelings on illegal immigration.

I have to tell you that I am pro immigration. Pro legal immigration that is. I was not born in the USA, but love it greatly and hate to see the very fabric of our nation being ripped apart. I was born with dual citizenship...Belgium/American...I'm here by choice, not because I can't pickup and go live in any country in the EU. Even Mexico does not tolerate illegal immigration. Immigrants from central and south America caught crossing the southern border of Mexico are shot by the military. At least we give them better treatment than that.

[tingjunkie]

Im not saying that i accept genocides, or that i support the killing of native americans, im just stating what has happend in history. Your own ignorance hits you in the face by just skipping over what i have said without even thinking about it. There are some people who listen, and there are others who just wait to speak. Try listening sometime. I am a practicing Jew, and the presence of genocides going on in my time hurts me just as much as the next human being, regardless if i am a realist to historical facts or not.

Im not saying that i accept genocides, or that i support the killing of native americans, im just stating what has happend in history.

To me, it seems like you are saying that it doesn't matter because it is in the past.

I have no problem saying how i feel in a respectful manner to anyone- face to face, or on the internet.

Calling the greater part of an entire race "spoiled brats" is respectful?

the government has already more than spoiled the people who lost the country.

How can you possibly say that our government has spoiled the Indians? We (the U.S. gov.) nearly wiped them off the face of the earth in horrible, inhuman ways. Then, we rounded up the survivors and gave them the worst, barron, un-farmable land to live on. Land which is in the middle of nowhere, and is far away from centers of industry where good jobs can be found. We also forced their children to go to schools where their culture and traditions were beaten and brainwashed out of them. We outlawed their traditional ceremonies, and we stole their sacred sites. We killed them, took away everything important, and gave them nothing but a lousy wellfare check. Does this sound like spoiling someone to you?

Is it any wonder that they don't know how to suceed in our eurocentric society when the deck has been stacked against them? Is it any wonder that many of them have become alcoholics? By the way, did you know that American Indians posess genes which make them much more succeptable to alcoholism? They are genetically and evolutionarily prone to being able to store nutrients in their bodies longer in order to get through times when food was hard to find. This means that alcohol has a much greater effect on their system.

Is any of this your fault, or my fault? No, we weren't even born yet. Should we have some god damn sympathy and compassion for what has happened to their race and culture? Should we realize that scars like these don't just go away, but get passed on to future generations? At the very least, I think we should refrain from calling them "spoiled brats."

There are some people who listen, and there are others who just wait to speak. Try listening sometime.

Don't worry. I listen very well. I think very well, then I speak very well. I'm not pulling this stuff out of my ass. Just because I disagree with you and find your comments horribly offensive doesn't mean that I'm not paying attention. Edited January 9, 2007 by tingjunkie

[tingjunkie]

Paul Revere Society

The Savage Nation

It has to do with what we were discussing because the Paul Revere Society mission statement pretty well sums up my feelings on illegal immigration.

I have to tell you that I am pro immigration. Pro legal immigration that is. I was not born in the USA, but love it greatly and hate to see the very fabric of our nation being ripped apart. I was born with dual citizenship...Belgium/American...I'm here by choice, not because I can't pickup and go live in any country in the EU. Even Mexico does not tolerate illegal immigration. Immigrants from central and south America caught crossing the southern border of Mexico are shot by the military. At least we give them better treatment than that.

It has to do with what we were discussing because the Paul Revere Society mission statement pretty well sums up my feelings on illegal immigration.

Wow, I don't want to hijack this thread, or open up other cans of worms, but... It's amazing that I can read the same mission statement, agree with lots of what is said, but see conservatives as being the cause of all the problems and liberals as the ones who are generally trying to do the right thing. God I hate our modern political system.

In reality, I think almost all politicians in both parties are complete assholes, and most citizens who subscribe to either party are generally good people who want what's best for the country. It's the politicians who refuse to work together, and villify the other party, then us citizens get caught up in the drama and villify eachother.

I have to tell you that I am pro immigration. Pro legal immigration that is. I was not born in the USA, but love it greatly and hate to see the very fabric of our nation being ripped apart. I was born with dual citizenship...Belgium/American...I'm here by choice, not because I can't pickup and go live in any country in the EU. Even Mexico does not tolerate illegal immigration. Immigrants from central and south America caught crossing the southern border of Mexico are shot by the military. At least we give them better treatment than that.

I'm with you here too. I am against illegal immigration, and I understand there are many problems which it causes for our society/country as a whole. The whole argument started because I thought Lakemonster was wishing harm and death to any illegals. That was cleared up many posts ago.

The main point I have been trying to make is that I feel the vast majority of people who are crossing our borders illegally are generally good people who just want a better quality of life for themselves and their families. I really don't want to make them into the "enemy" just because a few bad apples spoil the bunch. There are bad apples in every population or group, everywhere.

I don't know the best solution to this problem, but I think that demonizing the average person crossing the border is a HUGE mistake. Edited January 9, 2007 by tingjunkie

[art_official]

Spoiled brats? your right not very respectful of me at all.
And i think i have stereotyped the people from reflections of the few whom i have met and that is one thing ive always attempted to stay away from. If you are offended, i apologize.

These things are in the past though, and we do need to try and get over it. Yes, it was wrong. Yes, Americans brutally killed not only Native Americans but also Hondurans, Cubans, Phillipines, Bolivians, Japanese etc... If we hadn't done that we wouldnt be the super power that we are today. Do i agree with the polotics involved? Absolutely not. What i am saying is these are things in which we need to move on from. Do I as a jew feel any animosity towards Germany? Absolutley not. Towards Nazis and skin heads? Yes. Like i said, the world has seen some messed up events. But it is because of those events which have propelled us into the world that we live in today.

As for illeagal people coming into the border? I honestly have no problem with them trying to get a better life. If i did that would be completley hypocritical as thats what millions of Americans have done before me. I do have a problem with them hanging Mexican flags, and or burning American flags in protests of them trying to become legal. If i had my way, I would let them all stay legally as long as they respectfully followed the laws which were written long before us, and also worked honestly towards financial stabilty as some problems with hospitals are arrising with the incoming non-insured patients getting treatment for free.

Again I apologize for my previous ignorant statements to you tingjunkie, i did not mean to get ahead of myself, nor did i mean to sound ignorant.

[Lakemonster]

Actually, the Minutemen arent allowed to have rifles on function. You can have a pistol holstered. If at anytime you unholster the weapon on watch, even to defend yourself, you are no longer a Minuteman.

Minutemen do not allow interaction with illegal border crossers, it is standard policy for a Minutman to withdraw from an encounter with an illegal crosser.

They are basically people on the border with binoculars in one hand a cell phone in the other.

Bush called them "vilgilantes", yet he has a weak number of service people on the border doing the same thing with basically the same protocol.

[tingjunkie]

Apology accepted art official. Thank you. I would be lying if I said I have never held prejudiced views before myself. As long as we can recognize it, and try to correct it, then we are halfway there.

These things are in the past though, and we do need to try and get over it.

I agree that we should try to let go of our hatred and animosity towards our persecutors (much like the reconcilliation hearings in South Africa after aparthied), but I also think that we need to learn and study these things so that (hopefully) we won't let them happen again. I think our generation should forgive the mistakes made by past generations, but I don't think we should forget, lest we make the same mistakes ourselves. Edited January 10, 2007 by tingjunkie

[art_official]

agreed on that

[tingjunkie]

See, I knew we could all find common ground once we got passed the pissing-eachother-off stage.

Too bad we couldn't of had this debate over a fat bowl of juicy shisha! Next time.

[Sonthert]

When armed people approach US troops/security/law enforcement...shoot them all, when they are dead, shoot them again.

On the other hand, when you escalate tensions with armed troops, what do you think is going to happen? Its a rare example in history when more weapons hasn't caused more violence and more extreme measures bythe other side.

[Lakemonster]

Yeah. youre right....

we should be handing out gift bags and coupon booklets when they come across instead.

Problem solved.

[Scalliwag]

It comes down to how serious are we about solving the problem. Sadly, and this is not what I see as a good idea, but if we put as much money into Mexico that we have done with Iraq I think we would have gotten more of our moneys worth.
Politicians bitch about the cost of securing our borders yet they are willing to give a blank check on Iraq. At the same time ALL the 911 hijackers came across the Canadian border, that does not mean it would be that way the next time.

[tingjunkie]

It comes down to how serious are we about solving the problem. Sadly, and this is not what I see as a good idea, but if we put as much money into Mexico that we have done with Iraq I think we would have gotten more of our moneys worth.
Politicians bitch about the cost of securing our borders yet they are willing to give a blank check on Iraq. At the same time ALL the 911 hijackers came across the Canadian border, that does not mean it would be that way the next time.

I agree, though there are about a MILLION other things that money could have been spent on which would have done more good.

How about the fact that we are one of the only major first world countries without universal healthcare? Or that our public education system is going straight down the shitter (and wasn't so phenomenal to start with)? Or... well, you get the point.

[ghostofdavid]

Not to thread hijack any specific topic of this, but have you seen the workings of universal health care? Its horrible, at best. I like having lower taxes than our Canadian brothers and paying 3 bucks for a pack of 50gram shisha. Let us not forget that prioritizing exists in free health care realms. What does that mean? That someone who has money will get treatment much faster than someone who is 100% reliant on the nanny state's health bill.

A professor friend of mine did his PhD in Aberdeen (Scotland). While there, he found out that he had cancer. When signing up for treatment, he was told that he was going to be put on a waiting list that was longer than the remainder of his tenure and flew back to the states when he could to get treatment rather than rely on a horrible state ran health care system.

I can say, as one who currently has no insurance, that I prefer the system how it is now, to that form of health care. I'm not saying it doesn't need reform, i just don't think the government needs to food the bill and allow teh system to rot within itself.

[Scalliwag]

It comes down to how serious are we about solving the problem. Sadly, and this is not what I see as a good idea, but if we put as much money into Mexico that we have done with Iraq I think we would have gotten more of our moneys worth.
Politicians bitch about the cost of securing our borders yet they are willing to give a blank check on Iraq. At the same time ALL the 911 hijackers came across the Canadian border, that does not mean it would be that way the next time.

I agree, though there are about a MILLION other things that money could have been spent on which would have done more good.

How about the fact that we are one of the only major first world countries without universal healthcare? Or that our public education system is going straight down the shitter (and wasn't so phenomenal to start with)? Or... well, you get the point.

Yep, that is why I said I did not see it as a good idea. I just think if we were going to piss off that kind of money it would have been one of many different areas I would *rather* see it spent. But Halliburton would not make enough money off that idea I guess.
Congress just passed the bill where Mediaid can negotiate for better prescription prices. Some repubs like Mitch McConnell are extremely pissed about this. Wonder why? Hmmmm, I say investigate!!! HA!!!

[Sonthert]

Yeah. youre right....

we should be handing out gift bags and coupon booklets when they come across instead.

Problem solved.

There's only one solution? To escalate the situation?

Who was it that said "Show me a problem with only one solution and I'll show you someone who hasn't thought about the problem." Keynes, I think.

You blithely say that all the other possible solutions that other people might have essentially boil down to giving out coupon books and gift bags? Absurd. Your opinion is so valuable? Wow. You might as well resort to the tired old saw "Why don't you just give them the country?". If I could step into the same frame of mind, why don't we just save the trouble and nuke Mexico? Its real easy to reduce someone's points to rediculous blurbs of Fox News propaganda (If you raise minimum wage, you might as well start looking for a new country to live in or people who believe that don't believe in what America stands for and are unpatriotic)...on the other hand, you basically capitulated. If you can't raise good, rational points, the other person's argument must be correct.

You better watch out...they comin' to get ya! Thems catholic, spanish speakin' Mexicans! They gonna rape the white women and steal youse all blind. Get a gun and defend your country! All you whiteys look out, now! Thems Mexicans are sneaky...and lazy. They's steal jobs and rob houses. They'll childrun's ignorant and they'll cost us millions each. They'll slit your throat and eat your children. The same argument against immigration, more or less, that has been brought up for hundreds of years, just generalized and the appropriate words substituted for Italian, Irish, German, Indian, Black, Jew, Eastern European, pagans, etc. Can anybody representing the right-wing come up with new point against the Mexican Immigration? Something that hasn't been proven wrong by 200 years of history?

I say we open the borders up and let the Mexicans have everything that belonged to the people that were opposed to them immigrating.

Like I said, when you escalate a situation, more violence occurs, not less. I agree at this point, shoot them, really. Make sure enough dead ones get left there so that notice is served. It would be less easy, but more tidy, to come up with a solution that didn't involve killing people. (Oh, a great chance for another big trivialization, if you think they should be shot, go join the Border Patrol, ask to be assigned along the Mexico-American border and shoot them, big guy!) I disagree with the solution of putting National Guard troops there, in the first place. The solution is short-sighted and pointless. San Diego has one of the lowest proportions of illegal immigrants in California. If anybody can guess why, you will see why adding National Guard Troops is pointless, unless you want there to be bloodshed. Walls won't stop them, guns won't deter them. The big flag wavers out there, so proud of how great this country is; forgot. People will do anything for a chance to improve their lives. Democracy or capitalism or a great economy. Whatever it is, you won;t stop them. So, do what you will, but lets try to come up with a solution that doesn't involve killing other people.

Besides, the standard party line is that economy is getting stronger, stronger than its ever been before...so this is the best time to let immigrants in! Since illegal immigration is on the rise and the economy is getting better, stopping illegal immigration would be disasterous to the economy! Alternatively, you may believe that the party line is crap, in which case the economy is not doing so good. If thats the case, I really think immigrants are part of the solution, not the problem. If the economy is taking a fat shit, it would have to be because the high relative cost of labor/lower relative cost of labor elsewhere. Adding some nice, hard-working immigrants who work cheap would be just the thing!

More Immigration! More Immigration! Save the USA, adopt an immigrant! Bring jobs back home, let Mexico in!

Yeah!

[Lakemonster]

That statement was complete sarcasm.

Look. I'd love for there to be a "feel good " solution to the problem. I dont see one.... somewehre, somehow, someone gets boned.

We can either draw some realistic line in the sand (mentally and physically) about what is going to be acceptable and what is not. Then enforce that.

The border needs to become solid somehow. You shouldnt be able to cross ILLEGALLY, work ILLEGALLY and then mooch of the welfare system to boot. ITs almost like a rewards program.

What do I think we should do about all the "poor" people that come over here illegally? Prosecute. Prosecute them and those who employ and rent/sell them housing. I think that hiring illegals should carry stiff fines and up to 5 years imprisonment.

What do I think we need to do with illegal crossers? Give them work.... in prison camps on the border, buuilding up surveillance posts and walls where needed. Sorta like Maricopa county jail. Some of the illegals would be hired out as trustees to private firms building roads and other infrastructure to pay for the program. They eat the meagerest of foods.... take cold showers and drop deuces in hand dug latrines. IF they want work....we got it. and when the 3 month to 2 year stint is up...we chuck em back back across the border and see just how much they want to break our laws.

Its not the first time we have devised a way to crack down on immigrants in the border states. We outlawed a plant so that border states wouold have lawful ammo it needed to run the Mex out.

As Sonthert stated in the Chavez thread about freedom. Its not deserved unless you fight for it yourself. I think that economic freedom is much the same way. If the Mex population wont rise up somehow and overcome a corrupt system, then why sould I care?

I know my idea is harsh.. and it is very hardlined. But perhaps that is what I am, calloused and unforgiving by nature, especially on matters where I am expected to "lose gracefully" or be made the fool.

As for the shooting part. Yep... if they are armed and agressive. Shoot em. Dont matter if they are Federales or armed drug mules. They make f#cking GPS units...... theres no reason to cross "accidentally". I think that people that are being apprehended after crossing the the border that attepmt to run have just bought them the right to get shot at too.

There are many countries out there that US citizens find respectable that would shoot me on sight if caught making an illegal border crossing. Why should we be pacifists on the matter? Edited January 16, 2007 by Lakemonster

[tingjunkie]

There are many countries out there that US citizens find respectable that would shoot me on sight if caught making an illegal border crossing. Why should we be pacifists on the matter?

I agree with the rest of your post Lake, but here, my answer would be: Because we're better than that.

[Sonthert]

Let me one up that...humans should be better than that, or at least work at being better than that. Human nature may be dark (although I don't believe that it is) but we just have to all make a decision to be better than our nature. Be fair, be just, be honest, treat others with respect. You can still kill people whom you respect, but it shouldn't be our first option.

If I were to believe illegals are a problem, which I don't on many levels, I would say documented aliens are just as much, if not more of a problem. Here's how I look at the problem, from a solution standpoint.

1. Institute a federal payroll tax on businesses. Companies would fall into three categories:
a. 100% of the company's employees are American Citizens
b. 95-99% of the company's employees are Amercian Citizens
c. <95% of the company's employees are American Citizens

Category a) would pay nothing in new payroll taxes. Category B) would pay 10% payroll tax for all their employees. Category c) would pay 15% payroll tax for all their employees.

Pass a law that puts a wage ceiling on non-citizens...federal minimum wage+10%. Add hefty fines and penalties for non-compliance.

If this is a little too nutty...institute a heavy fine system for hiring illegals. $100 for the first illegal employee, $200 for the second, $400 for the third...etc.

Another problem is, quite literally, college-graduate chemists are going to make about $38,000 or $19 an hour. In San Diego, the cleaning ladies charge $20/hr. Especially the legal ones. In addition, the cancer of unionization in the American workplace continues, it would be far more practical for the department of labor to establish job descriptions and rates of pay for each. Thats a slight side issue, though.

Eric, i edited your post so the B) didnt turn into a smiley - Love EL

[EvansLight]

I've had the same view on this whole issue from the start. I think they should not be allowed over, but first hear me out.

I agree heavily with lake on the whole "They need to right the shit in there own country" It would be like me packing up and leaving the US and heading to a country who's system i like better. I can do it, but why not stay and try to change whats wrong?

And i think the national guard should have shot those people the minute they saw they had guns. I don't like the illegal crossing into the US to begin with, adding guns into pisses me off even more. I think we should build a 12foot tall solid concrete with steel reinforced wall to keep em out. It pisses me off for all the same reasons as lake said.

I also feel its BS that i have to learn there language in the country i live in, just to get certain jobs. I understand learning it to make it easier on people who LEGALLY came here, but having it as a requirement for a job, that really doesn't need it, bothers the hell out of me. And it comes back to what i said about me up and leaving the US, if for some reason i ever did, i would learn that countries language instead of making them learn mine (even though English is widely used throughout the world already). I understand at first they wont know it, but i know some that NEVER learn it. One of my friends mom never even tried, she knows like 3 words in English.

Now i don't mind people LEGALLY coming to the US. Im all for it, brings a diversity to our population, but the illegal kind is what ticks me off. And i don't hate Mexicans in anyway, one of my best friends in High School was a Mexican, who's family LEGALLY came over to the US, his mom and dad both learned English once they got here. See that too me is bloody awesome.

And yea the whole crime rate has gone up thing i know to be true. Friend works down closer to the border as a cop, can't remember what town its a small one, but he has said its gotten worse these past few years, more illegal Mexican immigrants being arrested, and all he can do is ship 'em back to Mexico.

So i feel very strongly about this, and i think we should wall it up for good. Real immigrants who come legally, can have the jobs i don't want, be we should enforce better labor laws, and really keep people who need and want those same jobs from being screwed by illegal immigrants doing the same damn thing for less.

[Sonthert]

I've had the same view on this whole issue from the start. I think they should not be allowed over, but first hear me out.

I agree heavily with lake on the whole "They need to right the shit in there own country" It would be like me packing up and leaving the US and heading to a country who's system i like better. I can do it, but why not stay and try to change whats wrong?

And i think the national guard should have shot those people the minute they saw they had guns. I don't like the illegal crossing into the US to begin with, adding guns into pisses me off even more. I think we should build a 12foot tall solid concrete with steel reinforced wall to keep em out. It pisses me off for all the same reasons as lake said.

I also feel its BS that i have to learn there language in the country i live in, just to get certain jobs. I understand learning it to make it easier on people who LEGALLY came here, but having it as a requirement for a job, that really doesn't need it, bothers the hell out of me. And it comes back to what i said about me up and leaving the US, if for some reason i ever did, i would learn that countries language instead of making them learn mine (even though English is widely used throughout the world already). I understand at first they wont know it, but i know some that NEVER learn it. One of my friends mom never even tried, she knows like 3 words in English.

Now i don't mind people LEGALLY coming to the US. Im all for it, brings a diversity to our population, but the illegal kind is what ticks me off. And i don't hate Mexicans in anyway, one of my best friends in High School was a Mexican, who's family LEGALLY came over to the US, his mom and dad both learned English once they got here. See that too me is bloody awesome.

And yea the whole crime rate has gone up thing i know to be true. Friend works down closer to the border as a cop, can't remember what town its a small one, but he has said its gotten worse these past few years, more illegal Mexican immigrants being arrested, and all he can do is ship 'em back to Mexico.

So i feel very strongly about this, and i think we should wall it up for good. Real immigrants who come legally, can have the jobs i don't want, be we should enforce better labor laws, and really keep people who need and want those same jobs from being screwed by illegal immigrants doing the same damn thing for less.

Gosh, learning a language, it could take like 100 years to do that! Why do you think YOUR language (the English Language) is better than their language (The Spanish Language)? Why is it that your language and their language can't peacefully coexist? If you were trying to get a job that didn't involves doughnuts, coffee or gasoline, you wouldn't have to worry about speaking spanish anyways!

A point nobody ever brings up is that immigrants bring new ideas, new ways of doing things. Thats one of the things that makes the US great. Linguists and psychologists have proposed many times that the way people think is frequently limited by the language they speak, sometimes their primary language. Literally, people who speak spanish, people who speak english and people who speak arabic's brain as native languages all work differently. They bring new ideas that we may not be able to think of on our owns. As far as I am concerned, nothing is more valuable than a good idea.

That being said, I don't think there should be any legal immigrants. People shouldn't be allowed to come here legally. They should ALL be illegals. The people that come here legally are the ones who take the jobs and fill up our schools. The illegal ones live in shanties and don't go to school and do menial labor that nobody really wants to do.

Crime rates are going up all over the US, right now. There is a swing in the crime rate. Illegitamite republican presidents make people think they can get away with anything, the same way the olympics increase skiing injuries. I think the crime rate might be attributable to the decline in the economy, more than anything. They may be coming over in greater numbers because the decline of the economy may be world-wide, not just here, or at least across the Americas. Look at the price of precious metals, base metals, all the metals on the market...absurdly high...that means bad times are imminent. Nobody is saying it yet, but its a coming...give it three or four years.

Gee, they get to have the jobs you don't want? You better than they are? How are you better than they are...that is more deserving?