Chavez Unveils His Socialist Plans

[Lakemonster]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americ....ap/index.html
CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) -- Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez announced plans Monday to nationalize Venezuela's electrical and telecommunications companies, pledging to create a socialist state in a bold move with echoes of Fidel Castro's Cuban revolution.

"We're moving toward a socialist republic of Venezuela, and that requires a deep reform of our national constitution," Chavez said in a televised address after swearing in his Cabinet. "We are in an existential moment of Venezuelan life. We're heading toward socialism, and nothing and no one can prevent it."

Chavez, who will be sworn in Wednesday to a third term that runs through 2013, also said he wanted a constitutional amendment to eliminate the autonomy of the Central Bank and would soon ask the National Assembly, solidly controlled by his allies, to give him greater powers to legislate by presidential decree.

The nationalization appeared likely to affect Electricidad de Caracas, owned by Arlington, Virginia-based AES Corp., and C.A. Nacional Telefonos de Venezuela, known as CANTV, the country's largest publicly traded company.

"All of that which was privatized, let it be nationalized," Chavez said, referring to "all of those sectors in an area so important and strategic for all of us as is electricity."

"The nation should recover its ownership of strategic sectors," he said.

Before Chavez was re-elected last month with nearly 63 percent of the vote, he promised to take a more radical turn toward socialism.

Chavez said that lucrative oil projects in the Orinoco River basin involving foreign oil companies should be under national ownership. He didn't spell out whether that meant a complete nationalization, but said any vestiges of private control over the energy sector should be undone.

"I'm referring to how international companies have control and power over all those processes of improving the heavy crudes of the Orinoco belt -- no -- that should become the property of the nation," Chavez said.
Partnerships sought

In the oil sector, Chavez didn't appear to be ruling out all private investment. Since last year, his government has sought to form state-controlled "mixed companies" with British Petroleum PLC, Exxon Mobil Corp., Chevron Corp., ConocoPhillips Co., Total SA and Statoil ASA to upgrade heavy crude in the Orinoco. Such joint ventures have already been formed in other parts of the country.

Chavez threatened last August to nationalize CANTV, a Caracas-based former state firm that was privatized in 1991, unless it adjusted its pension payments to current minimum-wage levels, which have been repeatedly increased by his government.

After Chavez's announcement on Monday, American Depositary Receipts of CANTV immediately plunged 14.2 percent on the New York Stock Exchange to $16.84 (€12.95) before the exchange halted trading. An NYSE spokesman said it was unknown when trading might resume for CANTV, the only Venezuelan company listed on the Big Board.

Investors with sizable holdings in CANTV's ADRs include some well-known names on Wall Street, including Deutsche Bank Securities Inc., UBS Securities LLC and Morgan Stanley & Co.

But the biggest shareholder, according to Thomson Financial, appears to be Brandes Investment Partners LP, an investment advisory company in California. Also holding a noteworthy stake is Julius Baer Investment Management LLC, a Swiss investment manager.

Chavez's nationalization announcement came in his first speech of the year, a fiery address in which he used a vulgar word roughly meaning "idiot" to refer to Organization of American States Secretary-General Jose Miguel Insulza.

Chavez lashed out at Insulza for questioning his government's decision not to renew the license of an opposition-aligned TV station.

"Dr. Insulza is quite an idiot, a true idiot," Chavez said. "The insipid Dr. Insulza should resign from the secretariat of the Organization of American States for daring to play that role."
Shades of Cuba

Cuba nationalized major industries shortly after Castro came to power in 1959, and Bolivia's Evo Morales moved to nationalize key sectors after taking office last year. The two countries are Chavez's closest allies in Latin America, where many leftists have come to power in recent years.

On Wednesday -- hours after Chavez is sworn in for another term -- former revolutionary Daniel Ortega returns to the presidency in Nicaragua.

In Managua, Venezuelan Ambassador Miguel Gomez indicated Monday that the two countries planned to work closely together, and said Nicaragua could eventually become Venezuela's top aid recipient -- getting even more help than Cuba and Bolivia, which benefit heavily from Venezuela's petro-diplomacy.

The United States remains the top buyer of Venezuelan oil, which provides Chavez billions of dollars for social programs aimed at helping the poor in countries around the region.

Gomez said Chavez and Ortega planned to sign an agreement on Thursday providing Nicaragua with resources -- he described them as loans -- for infrastructure, health, education, agricultural development and the construction of 200,000 houses, as well as energy and debt forgiveness.


Whoooooopppeeeeee!

[Sonthert]

Not uncommon in hispanic countries with oil wealth. Mexico took the same step in 1917, nationalizing their oil production (Pemex). Why not point out that Much of Europe is socialist, too? I would file it in the who cares file? Everybody is so ready to paint "them" with a paintbrush, but China, the USSR and Cuba all represented different ideas in socialism (as well as the Scandinavian countries). Oooh, they're trying to screw the oil companies...that will make news, because oil money has a huge say in the media. Big deal. If the US butted their nose out of other countries business, why does it matter? It only matters if you believe the US has the right to determine the destiny of other sovereign countries. This right-wing bull-whip against Venezuela is more political propaganda that might be setting the stage for more wars against helpless countries trying to reinforce our "we run this bitch." attitude. The same reasons lie behind the Iraq war...let the US and 1st world influence do what we want or we'll replace you with someone else. Hence the beginning of the Vietnam war, attack the country, depose the leader and then get the Chinese and North Vietnam pissed enough to attack. When will the American public stop letting the wool be pulled over our eyes?

[chipo]

Sonthert i understand where youre coming from and the reason why you might take this as somekind of rightwing bullshit, but let me assure you, it is not. I moved to the US from Venezuela just a couple of months ago and not because i wanted. I was forced to because of the political instability and the safety issues in the country. Since chavez assumed power in 98 crime rate has rocketed upwards as illiteracy rates have spiraled downwards. Just for you to see how he has affected the economy, in 98 the echange rate from dollars to bolivars was 500 bs to each dollar. Now it is more like 4500 bs to each dollar, and its not like theres a lack of money coming into the country, Venezuela Nationalized oil back in the 70 and new wells discovered puts venezuela as the country with the biggest oil reserves in the world. Also oil prices are at a record high, so theres more money going into the country than ever, but the country is not seeing any of it. Chavez's regime has been the most corrupt in venezuelan history, but sadly theres too much oil money that covers that up to the outside world. The wool is over everybody's eyes as you say. Also there's a difference between nationalizing oil and nationalizing energy and phones, by doing this he asserts his total dominance of the country.

[chipo]

also I might add that since he owns our version of congress he changes the constitution any way he likes it, and is presently introducing laws that forbid children form exiting the country and making mandatory military instruction from the age of 12. Also he is outlawing private educaton, which is the only type of education in venezuela that works, and is gonna forcibly take rich peoples hard won possesions? Oh and last thing, he is changing the constitution so that he can be reelected indefinetly. So, does this seem socialist? I have nothing against socialism, Egomaniacal autocrats like chavez i do...

[Sonthert]

Sonthert i understand where youre coming from and the reason why you might take this as somekind of rightwing bullshit, but let me assure you, it is not. I moved to the US from Venezuela just a couple of months ago and not because i wanted. I was forced to because of the political instability and the safety issues in the country. Since chavez assumed power in 98 crime rate has rocketed upwards as illiteracy rates have spiraled downwards. Just for you to see how he has affected the economy, in 98 the echange rate from dollars to bolivars was 500 bs to each dollar. Now it is more like 4500 bs to each dollar, and its not like theres a lack of money coming into the country, Venezuela Nationalized oil back in the 70 and new wells discovered puts venezuela as the country with the biggest oil reserves in the world. Also oil prices are at a record high, so theres more money going into the country than ever, but the country is not seeing any of it. Chavez's regime has been the most corrupt in venezuelan history, but sadly theres too much oil money that covers that up to the outside world. The wool is over everybody's eyes as you say. Also there's a difference between nationalizing oil and nationalizing energy and phones, by doing this he asserts his total dominance of the country.

Everything you say is probably true.

Why should the U.S. involve itself and risk American lives? To paraphrase the US founding fathers "You can't give people freedom, they have to earn it." On the other hand, The same retarded, short-bus mentality has drawn us into over two dozen wars in recent history. Nothing has changed...there are still dictators, still "threats" to our security, still injustice. If Venezuela wants to be free (and you) you have to go and fight for it, not go running off to some other country. More US founding father paraphrasing: "The tree of liberty must be pruned periodically, and fed with the blood of tyrants and patriots, this is its natural fertilizer." Simon Bolivar, a great statesman from your neck of the woods said something to the effect 'Democracy can only come when people who are willing to die for it give their lives." Or something to the effect.

In short version: If you aren't willing to fight for your freedom, you don't deserve it. Why should any of us care about Venezuela if you guys aren't going to go out and do something about it?

I am waiting for someone to revert to the great "Domino Effect" argument.

[chipo]

Sonthert i understand where youre coming from and the reason why you might take this as somekind of rightwing bullshit, but let me assure you, it is not. I moved to the US from Venezuela just a couple of months ago and not because i wanted. I was forced to because of the political instability and the safety issues in the country. Since chavez assumed power in 98 crime rate has rocketed upwards as illiteracy rates have spiraled downwards. Just for you to see how he has affected the economy, in 98 the echange rate from dollars to bolivars was 500 bs to each dollar. Now it is more like 4500 bs to each dollar, and its not like theres a lack of money coming into the country, Venezuela Nationalized oil back in the 70 and new wells discovered puts venezuela as the country with the biggest oil reserves in the world. Also oil prices are at a record high, so theres more money going into the country than ever, but the country is not seeing any of it. Chavez's regime has been the most corrupt in venezuelan history, but sadly theres too much oil money that covers that up to the outside world. The wool is over everybody's eyes as you say. Also there's a difference between nationalizing oil and nationalizing energy and phones, by doing this he asserts his total dominance of the country.

Everything you say is probably true.

Why should the U.S. involve itself and risk American lives? To paraphrase the US founding fathers "You can't give people freedom, they have to earn it." On the other hand, The same retarded, short-bus mentality has drawn us into over two dozen wars in recent history. Nothing has changed...there are still dictators, still "threats" to our security, still injustice. If Venezuela wants to be free (and you) you have to go and fight for it, not go running off to some other country. More US founding father paraphrasing: "The tree of liberty must be pruned periodically, and fed with the blood of tyrants and patriots, this is its natural fertilizer." Simon Bolivar, a great statesman from your neck of the woods said something to the effect 'Democracy can only come when people who are willing to die for it give their lives." Or something to the effect.

In short version: If you aren't willing to fight for your freedom, you don't deserve it. Why should any of us care about Venezuela if you guys aren't going to go out and do something about it?

I am waiting for someone to revert to the great "Domino Effect" argument.

Hey man, i fought, i went to every manifestation that i could, my family too. If check you can see that they have been the biggest peaceful reunion of people in the world. Nevertheless, when one's family is threatened things change. Someone tried to kidnap my mom last july, that was what made us finish making up our minds that the country was too unsafe to be in. Tell me, would you consider that running away? Im sorry but my family's safety is the most important thing for me. I think that if you would be put in the same position you would act accordingly. I still fight for my country from where i am. I might be in a priviledged position and i dont suffer what most of my countrymen do but i still fight for my country. And the first thing i try to do is instill the truth in people's minds, such as you. There is a great misconception of the situation in venezuela, brought about by chavez's propaganda campaign. Though I know my effect is lesser than that of the millions of dollars that he uses for propaganda, i still put in my grain of sand. When the international community really sees chavez for what he is, is when things will change. As long as he countinues to have support from other countries he will stay in power. That is what I aim to change. I do not support war and I do not want a US interception, nor do I support the war in iraq (though I do support the troops).

[Sonthert]

Sonthert i understand where youre coming from and the reason why you might take this as somekind of rightwing bullshit, but let me assure you, it is not. I moved to the US from Venezuela just a couple of months ago and not because i wanted. I was forced to because of the political instability and the safety issues in the country. Since chavez assumed power in 98 crime rate has rocketed upwards as illiteracy rates have spiraled downwards. Just for you to see how he has affected the economy, in 98 the echange rate from dollars to bolivars was 500 bs to each dollar. Now it is more like 4500 bs to each dollar, and its not like theres a lack of money coming into the country, Venezuela Nationalized oil back in the 70 and new wells discovered puts venezuela as the country with the biggest oil reserves in the world. Also oil prices are at a record high, so theres more money going into the country than ever, but the country is not seeing any of it. Chavez's regime has been the most corrupt in venezuelan history, but sadly theres too much oil money that covers that up to the outside world. The wool is over everybody's eyes as you say. Also there's a difference between nationalizing oil and nationalizing energy and phones, by doing this he asserts his total dominance of the country.

Everything you say is probably true.

Why should the U.S. involve itself and risk American lives? To paraphrase the US founding fathers "You can't give people freedom, they have to earn it." On the other hand, The same retarded, short-bus mentality has drawn us into over two dozen wars in recent history. Nothing has changed...there are still dictators, still "threats" to our security, still injustice. If Venezuela wants to be free (and you) you have to go and fight for it, not go running off to some other country. More US founding father paraphrasing: "The tree of liberty must be pruned periodically, and fed with the blood of tyrants and patriots, this is its natural fertilizer." Simon Bolivar, a great statesman from your neck of the woods said something to the effect 'Democracy can only come when people who are willing to die for it give their lives." Or something to the effect.

In short version: If you aren't willing to fight for your freedom, you don't deserve it. Why should any of us care about Venezuela if you guys aren't going to go out and do something about it?

I am waiting for someone to revert to the great "Domino Effect" argument.

Hey man, i fought, i went to every manifestation that i could, my family too. If check you can see that they have been the biggest peaceful reunion of people in the world. Nevertheless, when one's family is threatened things change. Someone tried to kidnap my mom last july, that was what made us finish making up our minds that the country was too unsafe to be in. Tell me, would you consider that running away? Im sorry but my family's safety is the most important thing for me. I think that if you would be put in the same position you would act accordingly. I still fight for my country from where i am. I might be in a priviledged position and i dont suffer what most of my countrymen do but i still fight for my country. And the first thing i try to do is instill the truth in people's minds, such as you. There is a great misconception of the situation in venezuela, brought about by chavez's propaganda campaign. Though I know my effect is lesser than that of the millions of dollars that he uses for propaganda, i still put in my grain of sand. When the international community really sees chavez for what he is, is when things will change. As long as he countinues to have support from other countries he will stay in power. That is what I aim to change. I do not support war and I do not want a US interception, nor do I support the war in iraq (though I do support the troops).

If it meant my life, if it meant my family's lives, I would choose death over living in that type of system. Anybody who knows me will tell you when I say that, I mean it. I wouldn't leave this country. I would fight for freedom. I would kill and be killed. I certainly wouldn't leave my home, the place I was born when things got tough and my country needed me most. Chavez or whatever, your truth is doesn't matter. You decided. You are more important than your country. Some people are of the opinion "I'd rather have my country die for me.", which I understand and respect. When things got tough, you left. When they get tough somewhere else, you'll leave again. You'll never have a home, trully.

[chipo]

Well i guess thats your point of view. My home is where family is, and i would kill to protect my family, anyone who knows me will tell you that. Im not running away, or being a coward, im protecting my family. If i had to give my life for them id gladly do it, but to put them in danger or leave them in a dangerous situation is too much for me. My family is my home. And I know about simon bolivar, trust me; ive been studying him all my life...

[Sonthert]

I love Simon Bolivar. I would place him, in my all time list of democratic statesmen, second behind Thomas Jefferson, but ahead of George Washington (3rd).

Trivia point:

Of the nine oldest countries in South America, Simon Bolivar had a hand in at least 6 becoming democracies, and one author credited him with 8 of the 9 (only Brazil was uninfluenced by Bolivar).

Bolivar cuban cigars are also a pretty good smoke. They used to be alot better when they were fuerte, like Cohiba. Now they are mas mediano.

[chipo]

I love Simon Bolivar. I would place him, in my all time list of democratic statesmen, second behind Thomas Jefferson, but ahead of George Washington (3rd).

Trivia point:

Of the nine oldest countries in South America, Simon Bolivar had a hand in at least 6 becoming democracies, and one author credited him with 8 of the 9 (only Brazil was uninfluenced by Bolivar).

Bolivar cuban cigars are also a pretty good smoke. They used to be alot better when they were fuerte, like Cohiba. Now they are mas mediano.

jajaj yeah i know! You know your cigars i see... I brought back from venezuela a box of contraband cuban cohibas for my dad right in christmas... I guess its one of the perks of being friends with cuba, none of that panamelan bullshit they try to sell you as cohibas...

[maggmaster]

Sonthert, interesting viewpoints. I am particularly interested in the way you do not seem to be interested in either partys stated platform, this makes me happy. If more poeple in America would realize that we have more choices than just fundamental right or radical left we would live in a better country.

As far as the socialization of Venezuela goes, I agree with your stay the f out solution on most levels. Socialism in most of its forms fails due to a lack of motovation to work. If humans are given the choice between working to be very comfortable or just being comfortable many will choose base comfort with no work. This will limit any socialisms ability to be an active contributing member of the global economy. The only reason that we need to be concerned about Venezuela is the effect it will have on us. The globalization of the economy says that there will be some effect on us if Venezuela falls deeper into the third world. We must consider that when we gauge our response.

[Sonthert]

I thank you for your praise, sir.

I forget if it was John F. Kennedy or who said it, but they said something to the effect of:

We don't need to fear communism, our way of life is good and just and helps people to prosper. Our system can compete ideologically with communism, we need no be ashamed or afraid. People will see our way of life and want to become more like us.

I like that. I believe that. Communism is good on paper, but the blanched, weak mimeographed replicas of true communism always fail...and nobody really has the guts to try a full-blown communist system. It would probably fail, too. It is predicated on the principle that people are inherently good. Whereas capitalism is based on the principle that people are inherently selfish. Both are, of course false. Its equivalent to me saying all white people are racist. People make up a large spectrum of ideas. Communism seem to hinge on its apprisal of people more than capitalism. Besides, its easier for a civilized man to act the barbarian than for the barbarian to act the civilized man.

Above all other things, the system of governement is irrelevant to its stability. The overriding factor is the wealth of the country, and the distribution of wealth. If the country is poor or there is a large concentration of wealth, revolutions are far more likely.

Alll that being said, Marx's economics principles were excellent, seminal economics works.

[maggmaster]

Absolutely, communism does not mesh well with the way people actually behave. Marx was brilliant but his work was theoretical and really does not function well with the way we are wired. Of course wealth is probably 90% of the stability equation, the other 10% is madfe of a myriad of factors including global positioning and internal strife. So the question is then, are we Rome in her decline or pre- imperial Rome?

[ghostofdavid]

Decline, baby!

[maggmaster]

I tend to agree, the scary thing is that few great empires melt into obscurity. Most go out with a tremendous bang. Except Britain...and to a lesser degree France.

[Sonthert]

From Heller:

"All Great Countries are Destroyed...Greece was destroyed, Persia was destroyed, Rome was destroyed"

I don't believe in political terms that the US is really that strong. Greece, Rome, Persia controlled the better part of two conttinents and part of a third, in each case. The US is much, much smaller, in real terms. Also, the concentrations of peoples were fairly tightly clustered around those areas, now they are much, much more widespread. Empires were practical back then. Countries and areas are tending to fragment more now.

That being said, the world isn't the same place it was. The age of Kings died with a whimper, the Ottoman Empire folded up shop in a few short years.

I would say: The US is in decline, traditional countries are going to continue to fragment around the world. Economic growth and focii will shift to China, Australia and Canada away from the US, Great Britain and Japan. The EU will only worsen the US' footing on currency position and industrial base and cause more jobs to leave the US and skills actually leaving the US for other countries in larger amounts. Wages as a function of cost of living will continue to plummet and crime will rise.

We did it to ourselves and we let it happen complicitly. Nobody will miss us when we are gone. Some people may cheer.

[maggmaster]

Many people will cheer, as sad as it is Europe does not remember that it was us who helped them 60 years ago. They have lost so much national identity that they take issue with us when we even mention it because, " That was your grandparents generation".

If you want to read an interesting book and you can get past the clearly fundamentalist viewpoint I would reccomend reading Orsone Scott Cards new novel called "Empire", it is about the America/ ROme comparison.

Another point, Sonethert we may not be as large nor as culturally superior but militarily there is no one in the world who even comes close. The force projection of a nimitz class carrier group covers 1/3 of the world and we have nine of them. One Los Angeles class nuclear submarine contains enough firepower to destroy 1/2 the world, if you target only major cities. Plus our government does not see fit to tell us about all of the technology that we have until we need it. So what do we really have.

[shisha fan]

Many people will cheer, as sad as it is Europe does not remember that it was us who helped them 60 years ago. They have lost so much national identity that they take issue with us when we even mention it because, " That was your grandparents generation".

If you want to read an interesting book and you can get past the clearly fundamentalist viewpoint I would reccomend reading Orsone Scott Cards new novel called "Empire", it is about the America/ ROme comparison.

Another point, Sonethert we may not be as large nor as culturally superior but militarily there is no one in the world who even comes close. The force projection of a nimitz class carrier group covers 1/3 of the world and we have nine of them. One Los Angeles class nuclear submarine contains enough firepower to destroy 1/2 the world, if you target only major cities. Plus our government does not see fit to tell us about all of the technology that we have until we need it. So what do we really have.

we haven`t forgotten what happened 61 years ago, and all european countrys are democratic as far as i know. but sometimes it is just better to not mangle in
every conflict, WWII was a completely different story offcourse. and national identity is a good thing and hasn`t dissapeared; france, germany, belgium and the netherlands for example all have generally different mentalities and views on things but they are all democratic.

[Gex]

You know, I tooka some time to write something out here, but it was late at night and it was really confusing. So I' pulling it until at least further revision. =P Edited February 6, 2007 by Gex