Wall In Palestine

[McDarragh]

exactly - i doubt it will ever be solved and all they have to look forward to is hatred IMO. Kinda like Inida and Pakistan (i think it was them) - you can split them up but it doesnt stop the conflict...

[azcoyote]

It is good to have a reasonable discussion of these issues. My position, while the wall is not perfect, it can be entirely removed in the proper circumstances. I assert that raising children on vicious lies and racial hatred is tantamount to building a physical wall. A physical wall is much easier to dismantle than a long-held belief. I am heartened to learn that there are voices of moderation among Palestinian and other arabs. Their voices are hardly ever heard, since they would risk the fate of every Arab leader who has made peace with Israel. But if you listen, their are such voices.

I applaud the courage of these would-be peace makers. They represent the only hope for peace, that is understanding and humanizing the "other." The fist site is in arabic, and I am unable to read it. I think it is authentic, but would love to hear from forum members who can read and review it's contents.


http://www.altawasul.com/MFAAr

This site is in english, french and spanish. There are some letters in arabic I cannot read, but mostly this is in english..

http://www.arabsforisrael.com

There is a lot of letters in their archive from arabs with a compassionate view of Jews and Israel. Also some reprinted articles of interest. I'd recommend first reading the article: What I learned from the Jews, by author Noni Darwish. It provided me with some new insights into the arab culture and mind.

The conflict over the holy land is a test of our souls. God has a way of presenting challenges to us that either make or break us. I believe his will is for all of us to live together in peace, as the brothers we truly are. If God is like a father to us, it must pain him greatly to see us at each other's throats. If we profess to be reverent, god-fearing men and women, we can best demonstrate our love for god by showing more love for one another.

Some thoughts on our common origins

As descendants of Abraham, Jews and Arabs share additional bonds. When I look into my heart, I honestly feel a kinship for the children of Ishmael, son of Abraham and Hagar. They are soul brothers of the same great father. Our test is to overcome millennia of conflict and become as true brothers again. A father's joy in seeing brothers working together for the good of the family is beyond bounds. We will enjoy blessings and prosperity beyond bounds when we put down our swords and embrace each other. We should do this, literally, for the love of god. In my view, Allah and Jehovah are the same energy. Different prophets are sent down various times, to various peoples because g-d speaks to us in a language we can understand. In Judiasm, we do not deify prophets. Not even Moses who delivered the law from Mt Sinai. This is to remind us of our place, children of god. God does not favor one child over the others. The rain falls on all nations.

[Johnny_D]

Some thoughts on our common origins

As descendants of Abraham, Jews and Arabs share additional bonds. When I look into my heart, I honestly feel a kinship for the children of Ishmael, son of Abraham and Hagar. They are soul brothers of the same great father. Our test is to overcome millennia of conflict and become as true brothers again. A father's joy in seeing brothers working together for the good of the family is beyond bounds. We will enjoy blessings and prosperity beyond bounds when we put down our swords and embrace each other. We should do this, literally, for the love of god. In my view, Allah and Jehovah are the same energy. Different prophets are sent down various times, to various peoples because g-d speaks to us in a language we can understand. In Judiasm, we do not deify prophets. Not even Moses who delivered the law from Mt Sinai. This is to remind us of our place, children of god. God does not favor one child over the others. The rain falls on all nations.

If nothing, absolutely nothing, else comes of this entire discussion, the above extract from azcoyote lifted my heart.

Thank you Azcoyote. I fully fully agree.

I had much the same conversation with some arabic gents (younger college guys) in a shisha bar in london just today.

JD

[benny]

Thank god i only just saw this thread, and cant honestly be bothered contesting the israeli apartheid arguement, seems adequately addressed by my brethren.


The wall is moveable, dismantleable, for the meantime necessary, and is saving countless lives.

Theres no wall around Eilat, and look what happened 3 days ago

And further with regard to the "bantustan" (sp) thingo that Sonthert always talks about. It's completely and utterly incomperable, given in the South African apartheid, the Bantustans were created by the whiteys, whereas the Palestinians (call them what u want) have been pushing for their own sovereign state, and thus have their territories. They are not an israeli invention, to isolate by race a peoples. Further more its proven, by having jews still living in Hebron, and probably other areas too. Edited February 2, 2007 by benny

[benny]

Heres a couple of interesting websites.

http://www.teachkidspeace.com/ Have a look at the garbage they're feeding their kids.

And for a bit of an insight into the mindset of a homicide bomber's mum, read here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3W8ImuEPe24

[alyehoud]

There are Jews and Arabs/Muslims on both sides of the wall. So this in and of itself debunks the myth it's apartheid. Not to mention the more than 1 million Muslim Israelis living inside Israel proper. Not to mention the new Cabinet Minister in Israel - a Muslim Arab. How many of the more than 20 Muslim countries have Jews in their government? Want to talk about apartheid, think Mecca where infidels aren't even allowed in the city, not Israel where any religion is allowed. You should talk to the Israeli Arabs and see if they enjoy their freedoms not afforded to them in Muslim countries.

What I have mentioned isn't even debatable because it is simply fact. Not speculation.

And by the way, the "Palestinians" aren't "boxed in" in the majority of cases. Only a few places are boxed in. Look at your handy "apartheid wall map". Edited February 3, 2007 by alyehoud

[[LB]]

i just wanna say guys this is the kind of discussion thats soooo important about hookahs. With hookahs comes great debate and discussion. It enables communication, and that alot of our world leaders are lacking. Maybe we should all get W a mya 4 hose.

[Sonthert]

Nice post, Nasirjonesether. Very dense and informative. I'm going to print it out and study it later in depth. Thank you for an insightful answer.

I few points I would like to point out. I very clearly said that comparing apartheid to the Israel-Palestinian situation was different because one dealt with race , the other nationality. I'm glad several of you pointed out the same thing I did. It was a parallel.

IF Palestine (which is NOT a sovereign country) is indeed ruled independently, why does Israel crack down when they don't approve of the Palestinian parliament actions, most recently I heard of, HAMAS being installed in elections? Is that really the actions of a country who is in favor of another country's independence to inpose sanctions when the second country undertakes actions the first country doesn't approve of?

One person pointed out that there are no jews in muslim governments and another one pointed out Arafat having a rabbi on his cabinet...who's right? Get together and come up with an aqgreement which is correct!

Somebody else says how integrated the different regions are, there are jews in Palestinian areas and muslims in Israeli areas...I'm glad we agree...if there is no fundamental difference between the two areas, there can't possible be a need for a wall...can there? The fact that there is a wall there demonstrates there is a clear difference between the two areas. Furthermore, comparing the conditions in the Palestinian camps to Israel-proper is...well you know what it is. Besides...who is constructing the fence?? Not the Palestinains...so the Israelis must be less than concerned with the autonomy of the Palestinians State.

Your point is well take, Benny, indeed the Palestinian areas are not the direct invention of the Israeli government...unlike the bantustans...that doesn't really change the relationship between the territories...people divided by race, ethnicity, religion or culture. Why are Palestinians fundamentally different than Israelis? They must be fundamentally different otherwise there would be no need for this wall...whatever difference it is makes the comparison distantly valid, whether its religion or language or strange clothing.

Somebody explain land that used to be held by the Palestinans in 1947 and is now held by Israelis...that must demonstrate a transfer of land...forcibly. The amount of land the Palestinians have, compared to 1947 is far smaller...the northern end of the country, the Gaza strip shortened...

Who started firing rockets? The Israelis bomb Palestinian areas in attacks against terrorist leadership...the Palestinians fire rockets, too. Neither side is innocent of gross crimes...I never said one side was all right and the other all wrong. I hear people saying Israel is justified and I object. Thats it. There is no justification like this. Israel is not less wrong than the Palestinians. My uncle lived in West Berlin for dozens of years...I understand what that does to people. Israel is instituting something that can snowball out of control and make things far worse.

Let me rephrase my statement for simplicity:segregating a society is wrong. South Africa did the same thing...Nazi Germany did the same thing. No, none of the three are the same. They are, however, comparable in WHAT HAPPENED to the ruling parties. Don't forget Rwanda...the ruling tribe was massacred by the subjugated party. The point is, when you deepen these lines of segregation, the eventual response is far more violent. Israel is setting itself up for alot more violence...the short-term solution seems obvious, but it will inevitably lead to worse mid-term problems. The long-term problem that seems at least possible, if not likely, is one side or the other (probably the Palestinians) will be largely decimated. Probably the Palestinians because the smaller group usually loses. The fear of this result, on either side is what concerns me. Humanity has enough tragedy without throwing gasoline cans on conflagrations like Israel is doing. We don't need more ethnic cleansings or mass murders. When you round people up into areas...mass-murder usually follows.

[benny]

Its a nice thought to think that removing the fence, would initially increase violence, but on a longer term scale lull the problem.

Did you watch the video on youtube Sonthert? Did you read how the palestinian state (who chooses their education methods) raises their kids?

It isnt a violent minority we're talkin about. Every child "educated" by the palestinian schooling system, is brought up on lies and hate.


Look at hamas through rose coloured glasses, play down their terrorist actions but have a look at this , some food for thought.





I think most Israeli's wish that they could demolish a fence, nd that the problems would magically dissapear.

I honestly wish it was all that simple.

Further more Sonthert. why do you Implicitly suggest that there will be an Israeli Mass murder of Palestinians, in 'refugee' camps (more properly called qassam camps IMO). There are Palestinian refugee camps in Syria, Lebanon and Jordan too. Do you think that their arab bretheren are going to massacre them too? They have in the past, so who knows i guess?

Bah, I hope for a solution, but the future is grim. Edited February 5, 2007 by benny

[alyehoud]

Sothert said, "One person pointed out that there are no jews in muslim governments and another one pointed out Arafat having a rabbi on his cabinet...who's right? Get together and come up with an aqgreement which is correct!"

Just to clarify, I said there ARE no Jews in Muslim governments. Are is present tense in the English language. There WAS (past tense) a "rabbi" in Arafat's cabinet, but these "Jews" are no longer part of the Jewish community. They are cut off. (See recent news articles about the group being protested and kicked out of hotels, etc.)

They can be equally be considered Jewish as can early Jewish Christians can be - which is to say, not at all.

-------

Also, the evidence that there is a need for the wall is the drastic drop in Muslim terrorism inside Israel since its erection. If these people weren't so hateful and savage, then there would not be a need for them. The wall wasn't build in 1948, or 1987, or 1973 or any subsequent war. It was build after one too many terrorists came to attack innocents, because their "government" not only didn't stop them, but actually supported them (Arafat).

[ghostofdavid]

Jewish Christians were definitely considered very Jewish. In fact, they appeared so similar John "Golden Tongue" demanded that third-fourth century Christians stop acting so Jewish so that they would seem a separate faith. Roman, the ruling agent, saw no differences in early Christianity and Judaism.

[Sonthert]

All the smoke aside, all the justifications aside, can anybody disagree that the Palestinians are treated more poorly than their Israeli counterparts? Wouldn't that feed violence? Whenever there is inequity along whatever birth-lines you choose to make, inequality follows, then hatred, then violence. The Israeli government has set the stage for violence and the Palestinains have fallen into it. I would not say that the violence isn;t real, but feeding hatred and then punctuating it by building a fence won;t help matters. A fence reinforces the distinctions between the Israelis and the Palestinians, which will deepen the hostility due to inequlity...

"There is no equality in separation."-Thurgood Marshall.

[azcoyote]

All the smoke aside, all the justifications aside, can anybody disagree that the Palestinians are treated more poorly than their Israeli counterparts? Wouldn't that feed violence? Whenever there is inequity along whatever birth-lines you choose to make, inequality follows, then hatred, then violence. The Israeli government has set the stage for violence and the Palestinains have fallen into it. I would not say that the violence isn;t real, but feeding hatred and then punctuating it by building a fence won;t help matters. A fence reinforces the distinctions between the Israelis and the Palestinians, which will deepen the hostility due to inequlity...

"There is no equality in separation."-Thurgood Marshall.

How they brought it on themselves.

A democracy gives people the freedom to determine how to run their lives. But there is also a responsibility attached to those decisions. When Hamas gained power in democratic elections, the majority of Palestinians voted yes for a party whose position is never to compromise a centimeter of Palestinian land. That must have really felt good. Like throwing candy to children and dancing in the streets just after 9/11. Problem is Hamas regards all of present day Israel as Palestinian land. They will never sign a treaty that disallows future Palestinian claims. Eventually, if it takes a thousand years of struggle, they are committed to making the entire area Judenrein.

As long as Palestinians continue to vote for this position, they can expect to have worse conditions than their counterparts in Israel. No one disputes that conditions are worse for them than Israeli arabs. Had they taken one of the many opportunities for peace offered over the years, they could now be enjoying the fruits of peace. But instead of planting figs or apricots, they have planted poison ivy.

What senario do you see if the fence was dismantled tomorrow? Here's what I see. Incursions by terrorists would increase. There would be some successful attacks in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv. The army would then invade the west bank and bull dozers would be used to remove homes of the families of these glorious martyrs. Sonthert will be the first to scream "barbarians, racism, etc." Or some child chasing lost sheep gets shot by an Israeli patrol. " Child killers!!!," I hear you say?

In light of this is it not more humane for both sides to keep the fence up and terror down until the Palestinians support a more moderate political platform than "kill the jews."

[benny]

All the smoke aside, all the justifications aside, can anybody disagree that the Palestinians are treated more poorly than their Israeli counterparts? Wouldn't that feed violence? Whenever there is inequity along whatever birth-lines you choose to make, inequality follows, then hatred, then violence. The Israeli government has set the stage for violence and the Palestinains have fallen into it. I would not say that the violence isn;t real, but feeding hatred and then punctuating it by building a fence won;t help matters. A fence reinforces the distinctions between the Israelis and the Palestinians, which will deepen the hostility due to inequlity...

"There is no equality in separation."-Thurgood Marshall.

How they brought it on themselves.

A democracy gives people the freedom to determine how to run their lives. But there is also a responsibility attached to those decisions. When Hamas gained power in democratic elections, the majority of Palestinians voted yes for a party whose position is never to compromise a centimeter of Palestinian land. That must have really felt good. Like throwing candy to children and dancing in the streets just after 9/11. Problem is Hamas regards all of present day Israel as Palestinian land. They will never sign a treaty that disallows future Palestinian claims. Eventually, if it takes a thousand years of struggle, they are committed to making the entire area Judenrein.

As long as Palestinians continue to vote for this position, they can expect to have worse conditions than their counterparts in Israel. No one disputes that conditions are worse for them than Israeli arabs. Had they taken one of the many opportunities for peace offered over the years, they could now be enjoying the fruits of peace. But instead of planting figs or apricots, they have planted poison ivy.

What senario do you see if the fence was dismantled tomorrow? Here's what I see. Incursions by terrorists would increase. There would be some successful attacks in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv. The army would then invade the west bank and bull dozers would be used to remove homes of the families of these glorious martyrs. Sonthert will be the first to scream "barbarians, racism, etc." Or some child chasing lost sheep gets shot by an Israeli patrol. " Child killers!!!," I hear you say?

In light of this is it not more humane for both sides to keep the fence up and terror down until the Palestinians support a more moderate political platform than "kill the jews."

AZCOYOTE i could kiss you. Never have i read someone articulate my mindset so perfectly.

The worrying thing is that a Physical fence is removable, but 5 decades of hatred.... Good luck magically bulldozing that.

As AZCOYOTE said, had the "palestinians" accepted the numerous peace treaties, or simply accepted that their country had changed name (it wasnt being run under any sort of muslim law, under the brittish mandate anyways) they would be in the same shoes as Israeli Arabs.

The Palestinians have chosen to wage 6+ wars on israel, instead of accepting the same number of peace deals (probably more, im not talking in pure specifics). I dont understand how a people who cause such national catastrophes can then turn around and expect to be treated the same as their bretheren, who whilst not agreeing with Israeli policy, never waged a war, and as such reap the benefits?

Israel Gives Israeli Arabs Full citizenship rights, and grants them exception from serving compulsory army time, if they dont want to.

So Sonthert for clarification when you refer to "their israeli counterparts" are you reffering to Israeli Jews, or Israeli Palestinians, or Both?

[Sonthert]

As to specific points:
Dan: Palestinians have been in worse conditions than the Israelis for 40 years. Despite your overlooking the Intifadas and the Oslo Accords as honest Palestinian efforts at peace (peppered with loud rhetoric), you forgot to mention the Israelis killing 20,000 in Lebanon and reneging on the agreement of the first intifada...for starters. HAMAS' election has had only a small change in the suffering of the Palestinian people. Nothing has improved, thats probably why HAMAS was elected in the first place. They planted many seeds of peace including recognizing Israel's right to exist...the poison ivy to which you refer is Israeli and broken promises, threats, intimidation and murder of PLO officials. Israel's talk of peace has generally revolved around surrender and any time good faith negotiations were entered into, Israel backed out (except for the establishment of the Palestinian authority...big whoop...what else). Israel opposed Palestine being given observer status in the UN...why? If they regarded Palestine as at least credible or their position legitamite, Israel should have welcomed Palestine with open arms...after all, the UN would then see how absurd Palestine's claims and complaints were once they were allowed to participate. Why would a rabid, hate-filled terrorist group like the Palestinians join the UN if it weren't to engage in meaningful dialogue? As to your last statement: just like the people that favored segregation said...it is more reasonable to keep segregation until there is no need for it. How did history judge the segregationalists that clung to the idea of a gulf between the two vastly different groups and the then logical need for segregation? Are you so sure you're right? I'm not...but if I side with what's morally right, I won't ever feel bad about being wrong. Dan, can you really say that this is the first time in history that segregation is right? Human morals have reversed themselves and Israel is pursuing a good course?

They brought it on themselves...I reminded of a man being questioned by the police about beating his wife "She brought it on herself...if she'd only done what she was told". Some people critical of the Israeli postion have offered the opinion that indeed, Israel's retaliations are more for not following Israel's wishes than for anything that the Palestinians have done wrong. I have no source for this, you'll just have to let it float...sorry.

Benny, it seems popular for the pro-Israel side to blithely say that the Palestinians have rejected all attempts at peace...but many people in the world, outside the US notably, view Israel poorly and fault them with at least as much of the blame for the situation as the Palestinians...perhaps you should return to this thread with some specifics...some of your vague comments sound a little out of sync with the...um independent view? Saying "6+ wars" is hardly scholarly...show your work, please. As I stated in an earlier thread, I would refer to non-Israeli arabs erroneously as Palestinians whereas I would refer to Israeli arabs as Israeli Arabs...more or less.

There was a time in the United States when people quite ignorantly believed that segregation was necessary. "The public School System would cease to exist" decried one segregationalist. Attacks on children and racial tensions would end up in an all-out catastrophe. It didn't. Thank you very much. Segregation is wrong. Its always wrong. Its never justified and no civilized country would ever practice it (hence, Israel is a barbaric country). "There's no way blacks and whites can ever get along." said a noted Louisiana "Its necessary to protect our children." Said one noted Lousiana governor. Sound familiar? Some more Thurgood Marshall: "Segregation damages the personality of the...minority group...and destroys their self-respect." "Segregation is morally wrong. There is no such thing as separate equality."
Marshall contended in his fight over the segregation of South Carolina schools that the only way the court could uphold segregation was to prove that the segregated group (negroes) were inferior...that was the only justification for segregation.

So which is it? Are the Palestinians inferior or is their segregation wrong?

How many history books must we crack to show that segregation never helps? The segregation ends with much pain and hardship for both groups? It must eventually. Then you will have to return to the inevitable, you must work with the Palestinians for peace, not sweep them under the rug like garbage. Oh, many prophecies of gloom and doom occurred in the US when the Emancipation Proclamation was carried out. "They'll return to the plantations to kill their owners." they said. It never occurred. What assumption must lie underneath that conclusion? Blacks are animals, not capable of being with decent people. That same premise has to live for the segregation of the Palestinians to be right. To keep them locked up and isolated, so to speak, they must be viewed as lower, as animals, not capable of living with decent Israelis. Israel's (and many of you all's) fear of unifying with the Palestinians is unwarranted at best, bigoted at worst. Until you swallow the idea that they are less important or lower than the Israelis, the possibility of segregation is repugnant. Thats why I find Israel just that...repugnant. An injustice, no matter how well reasoned out, is still an injustice.

Israel is morally wrong for pursuing their course.

According to Noam Chomsky, HAMAS was created consciously by Israel. The PLO was originally a secular movement for Palestinian independence. Israel funded and supported HAMAS to destablize the position of the PLO. HAMAS running the Palestinian parliament...talk about Frankenstein's creation. The religious hatred and extremism, then, by deduction is Israel's own fault trying to stay the tide of Palestinian independence and detroy the PLO's political options...why would the PLO, a terrorist organization, seek to join the UN under the name of Palestine if their primary concern wasn't diplomatic? Now they are out in favor of the whacko Hamas...nice work, guys...short-sighted and reactionary...start throwing the cans of gasoline on the fire. Moreover, Hezbollah, unmentioned, but I will, was the result of Israel's unprovoked attacks against Lebanon in 1981-1982. Hezbollah was the name of the Lebanese that fought against the Israeli attacks. Israel killed 20,000 people or so, sank ships in harbor and destroyed much of Southern Lebanon, again, the goal was to weaken the PLO. Granted, the PLO was a dangerous organization...or association as it were, but Israel has fueled much of the fire. Israel tried to destroy much of the voice of the PLO in preference to the obnoxious sounds of HAMAS. Alas, now that extremism reaches a fever pitch, we have to slide a little further back. When the fence stops working, what next? A wall? With armed guards, perhaps? Machine guns nests? Landmines? When that is decried by the world...what will be left...extermination?

Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, not to mention numerous attempted resoultions by the UN (vetoed by the US) have all called Israel a violator of human rights...the human rights of the Palestinians.

To punctuate my point, One person, is quoted as calling Israel's policies towards the Palestinians "Institutional descrimination"...who said that, you ask? None other than Israel's Interior Minister...Ophir Pines-Paz (Thank you Wikipedia...I couldn't have remembered his name without you!).

By the UN, by independent organizations around the world, by members of the Israeli governement...everybody's in agreement...Israel descriminates. It would then be also guilty of segregation since the descriminated against minority is kept in specific areas. Segregation is commonly believed by civilized people to be morally wrong. The fence is an extention of that and it, too is wrong. Morally reprehensible.

Who said 'When one fights dragons for too long, he becomes a dragon himself.' Until Israel gives up fighting, they endanger themselves to become every bit as bad as the Palestinians ever were.

[benny]

Discriminationn would mean prejudicial treatment of people different to themselves. Well dare i take it that you mean Jews, discriminate against Arabs?

As i pointed out The state of israel, has No qualms, with at least at an institutional level, granting Israeli Arabs civilian rights. So The Jewish state of israel, has no issues accepting Arabs. Thus Israel isnt discriminating against Palestinians, because they are arabs.

Further more if you want to be PICKY about being scholarly, why did you Incorrectly State that Ophir Pines Paz IS the Interior Minister for Israel, When he infact Resigned in November 2006?

Further more, there are 120 Members of the Knesset, So I would hardly consider 1 MK's opinion a representative population! That said, you could have picked better sources for quotes, say a Few of the Arab MK's. Im sure they Agree with Ophir, and probably were more slamming of the Israeli government, and you could have passed them off for Members of the Knesset being critical too!

Wars Israel has faced Since her inception:
1948 War of Independance
1956 Sinai Campaign
1967 Six Day war
1968 War of Attritiion
1973 Yom Kippur War
1982 Lebanon War "Peace for Galilee"
1991 Gulf War
Add the first and second intifadas
and the 2007 Second Lebanese war.

Most of these, Infact all of these wars, with neighbours or palestinians alike, have had the pretext that they are fighting the "colonialistimperialistinhumaneoccupying" israelis. whose treatment of Palestinians is so woeful. along with land usually (sinai with Egypyt, and the Golan Heights with Syria/Lebanon).

May i Also point out that you look into the HIstory of "Black September" In jordan. And no i dont mean the group that massacred the Israeli Athletes at Munich, i mean the month, where Palestinians were massacred by their bretheren.

Had there been an initial peace deal with the Palestinians in 1948. there wouldnt have been the 9 wars that i have listed there.

Further More, Sighting Noam Chomsky as an accurate and unbiased source is Simply laughable, as With the UN and Amnesty International. Oil speaks loudly.

its midnight and i have work tomorrow, ill better adress this later, if i can be bothered. Edited February 7, 2007 by benny

[rattler]

Israel's policy of moderation has failed. There are Palestinians who do not wish death and destruction on their neighbors...But it has become evident to me that there simply aren't enough of them to matter. It is time for Israel to take full control of the West Bank and Gaza. It is time for the complete and total disarming of the "Palestinian" people including police and military. Then and only then should the fence be removed.
People arguing that the fence needs to be removed now and that the Palastinians are being segragated has caused me to do much research...Research that has greatly changed my opinion on the course of action that needs to be taken...Research that has led me to believe that Israel must stop acting in moderation and begin acting for peace. Sometimes peace requires war.

[ghostofdavid]

Disarmament is always impossible. By making weapons illegal you're only creating more criminals. Families still need to right to protect themselves, even against their own corrupt government.

[alyehoud]

Jewish Christians were definitely considered very Jewish. In fact, they appeared so similar John "Golden Tongue" demanded that third-fourth century Christians stop acting so Jewish so that they would seem a separate faith. Roman, the ruling agent, saw no differences in early Christianity and Judaism.

I spent 4 years at a Catholic high school, I know . What I meant is that from the Jewish point of view, they were not Jewish any longer.


On a side note as I said in a past thread about Israel/Arab issues, this is a highly incendiary subject, with deep-running takes on the issue and the chances of changing someone's oninion on the issue who has already made up their mind is impossible. You can't change anyones mind, they change their own mind. You can only hope to show some reason to people who are ignorant on the issue - like the person who began this thread by calling a place Palestine, which is only a place in Muslim minds...

azcoyote and benny, keep up the good work Edited February 8, 2007 by alyehoud

[Sonthert]

Benny: you had stated that there were 6+ wars with the Palestinians...this is not the case and your background evidence states that to be untrue. Those wars are with other countries. The Palestinians are within the same country as Israel, so they would not be considered wars in the same sense. In fact, I never stated Noam Chomsky is unbiased, but he is one of the most prominant anti-Israel Amercian thinker...how you could call him biased, on the other hand is laughable...since you again make point after point without anything to back it up. As far as the war with Lebanon, didn't the UN draft a resolution calling for sanctions against Israel for war crimes? It did, but the US vetoed it. It seems anybody who disagrees with you, whether Amnesty International or the UN or me is instantly accused of being biased by you. Most of the independent observer's opinions I've ever read believe that Israel's aggression toward Lebanon started out one sided...on Israel's part...and yet Lebanon doesn't fight back. Israel created the problem of Hezbollah...themselves by attacking Lebanon without regard to long-term ramifications. How many independent organizations around the world call Israel's policies fair? Seems pretty damning...doesn't it?

I am not being picky about being scholarly...I was trying to suggest that your should back up what your points are, rather than smugly saying "This is true without any proof." You or anybody else, for that matter, haven't even challenged my point that Israel represents segregation and discrimination and these perspectives are always wrong. Israel practices immoral policies and therefore would be considered to be an immoral country. The fence is an extension of this discrimination and it too is immoral. Why is it OK, for the first time in history, for Israel to practice discrimination and segregation? Unfortunately, most of the pro-Israel rhetoric is draped in "Everyone knows", "It just is" and "Its obvious". Lets see reasoning countering the immorality of Israel's policies toward the Palestinians.

So Palestinians aren't liked by neighboring arabs...by the same token, before WWII, Russia didn't want jews in their country...so is that justification for the Nazis to practice discrimination (and worse) against Jews during WWII? Of course not...remember 1st grade? Two wrongs don't make a right. This is the point...read this carefully...the problem the Jews have had through history is that nobody wanted them around and were real bad to them. So this culminated in the Nazi's halocaust...why couldn;t somebody have said "OK, I'm not going to judge the Jews on stereotypes, I will welcome them here." No? Same thing for the Palestinians...nobody wants them around, the Israelis, having learned no compassion from thousands of years of their own suffering return the suffering to people they should understand very well...but still treat like animals. How woeful is he who learns nothing from his own history?

Rattler: Finally...a voice of reason...I'm sure the halocaust started the same way...Enough of this moderation, we have to solve this problem once and for all. There are a few Palestinains that are OK? How do you justify potentially killing or injuring Palestinians who are innocent? That is they throw no bombs, make no plans, offer no quarter to those who would? When you start killing innocent people, that have been convicted on no crime...doesn't that define a halocaust?

"any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; and forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

Thats the definition of genocide, the definition of an halocaust is a genocide of a minority group...sounds about like what what happen if you got to carry out your plan, eh? Sounds like whats partially happening now.

Thats what I prophesized several times...this continues and one side will end up slaughtering the other...probably the Palestinians getting it since they are the minority. In truth, I respect this opinion the most, rather than hiding behind euphemisms, good honest, lets put the ultimate option up on the board and see how it flies. I oppose it, but its honest and I like your honesty in this matter, sir.

I will disagree with your point. Most people are good and want peace...the ones that want war and destruction are always a minority...thats why war is always a tragedy...inoocent people who want nothing to do with war get hurt by it. The majority of Palestinains, like the Israelis are good people, honest people whom love their children and want them to do well. They want their children's future to be slightly brighter than theirs ...they are no different really. They don;t want others to get hurt, they want to get along with their lives. Thats why I disagree with your solution, although it be honest.

Alyehound..."Keep up the good work" a little unnecessary isn't it? You needn't be insulting...just because you can't see my points because you don't agree with them, I do read yours and don't trivialize them. Just because 3 or 4 pro-Israel people are exchanging points with me doesn't make you right. Quite the opposite...all the information I keep hearing out of you guys is propaganda type stuff.

Somebody please just justify supporting a country that practices de jure segregation and discrimination (Israel). I want to see this, all these little they did first propaganda aside, justify the policy of Israel towards the Palestinians rationally without using moral relativity. Also try to do it without using the obvious bigoted idea that the Palestinians are inferior.

[rattler]

Rattler: Finally...a voice of reason...I'm sure the halocaust started the same way...Enough of this moderation, we have to solve this problem once and for all. There are a few Palestinains that are OK? How do you justify potentially killing or injuring Palestinians who are innocent? That is they throw no bombs, make no plans, offer no quarter to those who would? When you start killing innocent people, that have been convicted on no crime...doesn't that define a halocaust?

"any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; and forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

Thats the definition of genocide, the definition of an halocaust is a genocide of a minority group...sounds about like what what happen if you got to carry out your plan, eh? Sounds like whats partially happening now.

Thats what I prophesized several times...this continues and one side will end up slaughtering the other...probably the Palestinians getting it since they are the minority. In truth, I respect this opinion the most, rather than hiding behind euphemisms, good honest, lets put the ultimate option up on the board and see how it flies. I oppose it, but its honest and I like your honesty in this matter, sir.

I will disagree with your point. Most people are good and want peace...the ones that want war and destruction are always a minority...thats why war is always a tragedy...inoocent people who want nothing to do with war get hurt by it. The majority of Palestinains, like the Israelis are good people, honest people whom love their children and want them to do well. They want their children's future to be slightly brighter than theirs ...they are no different really. They don;t want others to get hurt, they want to get along with their lives. Thats why I disagree with your solution, although it be honest.

To put it another way while I would hope for a peaceful resolution to the conflict I no longer see it as a possability. One side is likely to have to use military power to quelch the opisition. Frankly short of one side murdering off the other there is at least a slight hope that Israel could improve the situation by forcibly taking control of all areas...

Yes innocent Palestinians will be hurt and killed...But how is that any worse than the innocent Israelis that are killed now? The difference is the Israelis would target the terrorists while the terrorists purposely target CIVILIANS. That's the way of war I guess, soft targets will get hit.

And yes it's honest. For risk of sounding like a ass I honestly put forth my feelings. Love me or hate me for it I try to be honest with my feelings and thoughts. The situation over there makes me sad. Life (all life) should be considered precious.

[Sonthert]

Rattler: Finally...a voice of reason...I'm sure the halocaust started the same way...Enough of this moderation, we have to solve this problem once and for all. There are a few Palestinains that are OK? How do you justify potentially killing or injuring Palestinians who are innocent? That is they throw no bombs, make no plans, offer no quarter to those who would? When you start killing innocent people, that have been convicted on no crime...doesn't that define a halocaust?

"any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; and forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

Thats the definition of genocide, the definition of an halocaust is a genocide of a minority group...sounds about like what what happen if you got to carry out your plan, eh? Sounds like whats partially happening now.

Thats what I prophesized several times...this continues and one side will end up slaughtering the other...probably the Palestinians getting it since they are the minority. In truth, I respect this opinion the most, rather than hiding behind euphemisms, good honest, lets put the ultimate option up on the board and see how it flies. I oppose it, but its honest and I like your honesty in this matter, sir.

I will disagree with your point. Most people are good and want peace...the ones that want war and destruction are always a minority...thats why war is always a tragedy...inoocent people who want nothing to do with war get hurt by it. The majority of Palestinains, like the Israelis are good people, honest people whom love their children and want them to do well. They want their children's future to be slightly brighter than theirs ...they are no different really. They don;t want others to get hurt, they want to get along with their lives. Thats why I disagree with your solution, although it be honest.

To put it another way while I would hope for a peaceful resolution to the conflict I no longer see it as a possability. One side is likely to have to use military power to quelch the opisition. Frankly short of one side murdering off the other there is at least a slight hope that Israel could improve the situation by forcibly taking control of all areas...

Yes innocent Palestinians will be hurt and killed...But how is that any worse than the innocent Israelis that are killed now? The difference is the Israelis would target the terrorists while the terrorists purposely target CIVILIANS. That's the way of war I guess, soft targets will get hit.

And yes it's honest. For risk of sounding like a ass I honestly put forth my feelings. Love me or hate me for it I try to be honest with my feelings and thoughts. The situation over there makes me sad. Life (all life) should be considered precious.

You can't use military might to quell non-military hostility long, if history has taught us anything.

See, look at the issue from a non-relativistic manner...try to imagine the situation from the Palestinian perspective and/or disregard what you have heard as partially or totally untrue. Sometimes its hard, but give it a go. I believe its best to settle moral issues when you alternately disregard things that may or may not be true, distill moral decisions down to things you can back up with solid intel. I did this for about 7 weeks 6 or so years ago to come to a conclusion about the Palestine-Israel conflict. I did do other things, but I have a way of, in the background of my brain, grinding away information slowly while I'm doing and thinking other things in the foreground.

Is Israel the aggressor...is Palestine the aggressor? You're sure Palestine is...what if they aren't...what if they are revolutionaries fighting for their independence and using violence to do it? I'm not saying they are one way or the other, I'm trying to pose questions...If Israel was the aggressor and Palestinians the victims, what does that do to your beliefs? If it changes nothing, then go right ahead...if your views flip-flop changing that one idea, then disregard both as unknown and view, like I do, both sides guilty of using violence. You could still easily argue the barbarity of Palestine or Israel, both are using violence indescriminantly. Oh yeah, what if Israel's portrayal of their targets as terrorists is wrong or covering for wanton acts of aggression? Nobody...not even the US, one of the most advanced militarys in the world, can't guarantee precision bombing closer than 1/8 mile (500-600 ft). In a crowded urban area, you may miss and hit the next building...why is it so frequently that these sortees are carried out, but so few terrorists are gotten to? Why are so many needed? If they were truly accurate the first two weeks would kill everybody they wanted and discourage people from engaging in terrorist activites. Indeed, they publicize their successes, rare though they may be, and even the close calls to enforce their idea that its a good idea and it works...forgetting to tell you that they are as many as 10 a day (I heard numbers in the 20s, too, but you can't believe everything you hear...the exact number is probably somewhere between what Israel says and Palestine says) The bombings must be inexact, which means there must be collateral damage, innocent victims, etc. There is no difference between an Israeli bombing to get a terrorist and a suicide bomber, in my opinion. You say justification, perhaps, but I would say I disregard both stories as false, so I judge each on its merits. Both are violent, kill and injure innocent people. One is undr the name terrorism one security (or anti-terrorism) but what are the effects? The same...terrible. Your point is that the Israelis target terrorists and the Palestinans target civilians. Ususally, in both cases, whatever the spoken intent might be, the end result is dead civilians whether by Israeli or Palestinian attacks.

Here are some reasons, off the top of my head, why Israel may be the aggressor:

Palestinians have free elections, carefully watched by foreign observers. The more democratic a country is, the less likely they are the aggressors.

Some prominant independent organizations and the World Court and the UN have cited Israel for human rights violations, where the Israeli side has garnered little world support from organizations. Generally when enough people in the world hear a story, the majority very fairly side with the morally correct choice.

Talking to Palestinians and Israelis. From Israelis, its things like "Its not our fault, they did it first." or "Its complicated, there's lots of complexities in the Israeli government." "Its just the way it is/has to be." They brought it on themselves." or my favorite "You can't understand." They tend to be weak, excuses like "Why did you play ball in the house, Johnny?" lacking any substance or specifics. People, when they are telling the truth, as any cop on the beat will tell you, will often add specifics. People will be vague when they are lying or lack information. When you talk to Palestinians, they use phrases like "Its horrible.", "Like Hell", "They kill women and children.", and "They attack us day after day." but then they tell stories about riots, bombings and things of the sort, giving specific details. Which adds a certain verisimilitude to their side which is lacking in the Israeli accounts.

Israeli hard-line interests continue allowing settlements into Palestinian territories. Ironically, the fence will probably put an end to that. That may be the hidden agenda on the part of certain factions of Israelis trying to keep it from the hardliners. Putting up the fence will change the way illegal incursions into Palestinian areas are handled...perhaps in a good way. The fence itself, then to say it was good would be saying the ends justify the means.

From even conservative estimates, the Israelis detonate/launch many more devices on a daily basis than the Palestinians...the Palestinians on a good month set off 10 suicide bombs? If the Israelis even average one anti-terrorism campaign by bombing a building per day, thats thirty.

The Palestinians attempt to draw other countries and nations into the debate, while Israel tries to close debate off to bilateral talks. Palestine wants to become an honorary member of the UN, Israeli opposes it...if Israel's evidence is so obvious and overwhelming, why don't they want people to hear about it? Support Palestine getting into the UN and then everyone will know how stupid they really are. If they are telling the truth more or less and the truth embarrasses you, keep them silent. Israel calls for negotiation are often bilateral, with an observer or independent arbitrator in Israel. Palestinian calls for peace talks take place in other countries with numerous other countries in attendance. Generally the party in the wrong tries to be vague and keep information to a strict minimum. The party in the right will talk endlessly, telling as many people as he can why he is right. As a general rule, people who are talking out of their ass don't like being long-winded. An innocent man has nothing to hide, a guilty man will almost always be short and omit many things (Thats what cops will tell ya). Israel's points tend to be short and lacking information, while Palestine's tend to be far longer and loaded with information. Israel has taken many steps to silence the Palestinians over the years, including attacking Lebanon (where the Palestinians were hiding out). If they are insane and making irrational claims...why silence them?


As a side point, several people have made the point the Palestinian neighbors don't want them around...well Israel attacking Lebanon and killing thousands punctuated the point...help the Palestinians and we will draw the same sword on you...I wouldn't doubt many people would look out after their own well-being and tell the Palestinians to screw off. I wouldn't...but I wouldn't blame somebody who would.

If there wasn't segregation...these attacks by both sides wouldn't be possible. You can't blow up a building if some of "your" own people are next door...they could be hurt...if you tell them, the word would get out and the attack would be useless.

I agree with your last statement Rattler, regarding human life, sir, but don't worry, people who have thought long about a matter always have good opinions, whether people agree with them or not. As long as you aren't smug and just say "Thats what I believe, I don't need to explain it." Your opinion is welcome at all tables of debate, I'm sure. Dan has thought a lot about his points, and he makes good ones. I don't agree with most of them, but debating somebody who has done his homework is always a pleasure. Bringing up an appropriate quote:

"If you don't intend to row, don't put your oar in the water." Kipling (?)

So, no opposition to my points to my previous responses regarding Israel's immorality and the fence's immorality? We are all in agreement that the fence is immoral. Some because we should run tanks over them, others because its inhumane. Fair enough. The pro-Israel side has given up to let people hear what both sides of the Israel-Palestine conflict believe? Wow! I had no idea I was so good! I am joking, of course.

[azcoyote]

"If you don't intend to row, don't put your oar in the water." Kipling (?)

So, no opposition to my points to my previous responses regarding Israel's immorality and the fence's immorality? We are all in agreement that the fence is immoral. Some because we should run tanks over them, others because its inhumane. Fair enough. The pro-Israel side has given up to let people hear what both sides of the Israel-Palestine conflict believe? Wow! I had no idea I was so good! I am joking, of course.
[/quote]

Don't flatter yourself.


Although some may deem your argument not worthy of response, I am taking the trouble to answer your assertions. The damage you do in repeating the libel is equal to or worse than its' first iteration. You are just repeating the big lie over and over again. My job is to make this obvious to all readers.

About the "security fence." Separation of feuding parties is not challenged when a judge issues a restraining order to keep conflicts from being resolved through violence. Ideally, the UN should be poised to fill this role, but they are a completely dysfunctional and ineffective force. Since they have abdicated their peace keeping duties, it falls to Israel to defend themselves.

You claim that the fence is barbaric. The ancient Greeks were dominated for a time by Sparta a Greek city-state. The Spartan king declared (paraphrased)"Sparta will have no walls but the points of its spears." After conquering Athens, another city-state, their terms for peace included the condition that the Athenian city walls were destroyed. For about three centuries they enslaved the Mycenaeans - fellow Greeks - all without the benefit of a wall around their city. Did the absence of a wall make their enslavement any less barbaric? A wall is a state of mind. Context does matter. I addressed this in a previous post, but my point remains unchallenged. A physical fence can come down in a day or a week. The pablum of prejudice and hate Palestinians are weaned on is far more persistent and pernicious.

"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

That "almost everyone" condemns Israel should come as no surprise considering the constant and loud litany of false claims their detractors have made over the last 60 years. This is precisely how the big lie works.

I am suggesting that the world's support of Israel has been substantially eroded from a concerted propaganda effort. This has been orchestrated and financed by oil-rich sheiks and their spiritual leaders. They are more offended that the Jew who they dearly loved to push around in their own societies should hold any kind of power. It really flies in the face of their presumed superiority. This is a very-well considered, effective and intelligent tactic. One should not confuse it with the truth, however.

Eric, you have so clearly been seduced as you repeat the same exact rhetoric they employ. What happened to you six years ago? Does your epiphany preclude any appeals to reason? Did your investigation of the "facts" include a review of resources such as Myths and Facts online? Or is your position "don't confuse me with the facts." Or will you just dismiss inconvenient facts as Israeli propaganda?

Perhaps you will take a look, if only out of mere curiosity as to where I get support for my arguments. Perhaps others following this thread will do so. Next time you feel the urge to hurl brick bats at Israel, you may wish to consult:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsourc...ths2/mftoc.html

Since you have stated your ignorance of the particulars of peace negotiations, why don't you check what the Palestinians left on the table when they walked away from Taba? Then come back and tell us, o.k.? You will find a completely factual account there.

I am not an original thinker on this, and don't have time for the required scholarship. Not that I can't be bothered to, just I have to earn a living and this takes most of my waking hours. Others have dedicated careers to this and I must rely on their published findings.

When unholy words emanate from the faces of "holy men" Jewish ears pick up. Eric, believe it or not, we are students of history. ONE thing history has taught us is things can turn to shit in a hurry. And when it does our "friends" have a way of becoming really scarce. We ignore this at our peril.

In the roaring twenties, no Jew in Germany could have had an clue that in the next decade they would become completely marginalized, disenfranchised, dehumanized and ultimately incinerated in industrial ovens after being worked to death to support the Wehrmacht. Had they read Mein Kampf, and taken it seriously, they may have taken steps to save themselves. But being people of reason, they underestimated the power of "the big lie." They underestimated the credulity of the masses. Big mistake.

Never Again.

Who today could also believe this crap? Here's a clue. They also believe the 9/11 attacks were a US/Israeli conspiracy to justify the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. According to news reports (wish I could be more specific) 90 percent of Egyptians accept this as fact. No one ever lost a bet underestimating the credulity of the Arab street.

You have opined a couple times that the Jews, familiar as they are with oppression should have more compassion for the Palestinian's situation. Here we have two survivors of a shipwreck fighting for a piece of flotsam that will only keep one of their heads above water. How much compassion do you have for the other in this situation, Eric? Honestly, now, how much?

The shipwreck I refer to is what happened to the Palestinians when they vacated their homes so five arab armies could execute a scorched-earth policy. They were instructed to do so by their spiritual leaders and exhorted by constant radio broadcasts from bellicose regimes that surrounded the reborn Israeli state. They were not marched out like Native Americans on the trail of tears. Nor were they held hostage. Those who threw in with the Israelis have become Israeli Arabs. Using any measure you choose, they have more freedoms and opportunities - a better and freer life - than their brethren anywhere else in the Arab world. I think this demonstrates a degree of societal compassion that is extraordinary, considering the circumstances.

I am fighting back against the big lie, because I think it's just too dangerous to let it stand unanswered.




(Excerpted from Wikipedia)
Hitler wrote in his 1925 autobiography Mein Kampf (James Murphy translation, page 134):
All this was inspired by the principle - which is quite true in itself - that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods. It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there may be some other explanation. For the grossly impudent lie always leaves traces behind it, even after it has been nailed down, a fact which is known to all expert liars in this world and to all who conspire together in the art of lying. These people know only too well how to use falsehood for the basest purposes. ...

(emphasis mine)

Also from Wikipedia....
Mein Kampf was sixth on the Palestinian bestseller list, circa September 1999,[7] and the book, translated into Arabic, has been widely distributed in the Arab-Muslim world from the 1930s to the present.[8]


Your position that everyone condemns Israel so they must be wrong is based on which branch on logic? The truth is not a popularity contest. Your observations and the conclusion you have drawn from them entitle you to an opinion, but your argument is based on anecdotal information, and inference not the kind of hard citations you have asked for.

Let's remember, there was a time when most people believed the world was flat and was the center of the universe. It was so obvious to them.

You claim Israel must heel to the authority of international bodies. What about the Palestinians? Consider the UN Partition of Palestine in 1948. Although their borders were indefensible, Israel accepted the UN plan. For the sake of peace they accepted around 12 percent of the territory of the former Transjordan. As you know, the Arab League met the next day and rejected the UN plan. Thus they repudiated international authority. Five arab armies invaded with the explicit and unabashed objective of murdering every Jew they could find. Israel was not the aggressor by any account. This was to be an ethnic cleansing, Eric.

Absolutely everything now must viewed against that backdrop. Now-a-days, Palestinians find it expedient to use the UN to bring them closer to the same goal. A goal they have never completely repudiated. Why would they turn to this forum when they unanimously rejected the authority of that same body from the very start? Since members of the Arab League prevailed on them to vacate their homes, isn't it the Arab League that should be responsible for finding them new homes? Not the United Nations. Not the US. Not Israel. This is not a video game you can reset to level one every time you lose. There are consequences.

I am all for an end to discrimination. Like yourself, I believe that people should be free to live where they please, Whites and Blacks, Arabs and Jews .. But how does it not discriminate against Jews when you tell them their presence is outright illegal?. Do you support the deportation of all Jews from Palestine and Israel and the dissolution of the State of Israel? Is this what you mean when you say you oppose Israel? Please state your position explicitly.

Mao Tse Tung wrote, " Revolution only comes from the barrel of a gun." But the Chinese Revolution and the "Cultural revolution" of the '60's in China has resulted in a very militaristic and authoritarian society where the threat of imprisonment for political improprieties is constant. China is a society in chains. I would not wish that on my "cousins," the Palestinians. Consider all your options, my friends. You deserve better.

Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King had the right idea. A sustained campaign of non violent, civil disobedience mobilized world sympathy far more effectively than and terrorism ever could. It mobilized consciousness within India and and England. In the end, the Brits quit India. Today India is the world's most populous democracy. A wide variety of political expression is tolerated in India.

And since "the world" as you say, already thinks Palestinians are the oppressed party, it should be a cakewalk. As a start, Palestinians could boycott Israeli employers, shops, markets, hotels, ships, restaurants, hospitals, doctors, universities, ambulances, pharmacies, dentists, busses, taxis, airplanes, theaters, orchestras, and the like until Israel feels the pinch.

If a thousands of Palestinians held hands along the length of the fence singing "we shall overcome." It would make them a lot more poignant to world sympathies. Even to my own.

"Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo."
- H. G. Wells (1866-1946)

The bitter enmity against Israel derives in large part from the sour grapes of Arabs who must wonder, how it is that while even under almost constant attack, Israel has created a vibrant modern culture, a thriving agriculture and a home for learning and the arts. Medical and other technological "breakthroughs" are not uncommon. There are research hospitals, universities and conservatories. Consider that Israel's economy is larger than the aggregate of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt combined. Israel grew this economy while it absorbed over a half million Jewish refugees from Arab lands and was forced to dedicate a huge portion of their national budget to defense. In Israel there is universal health care. There is no death penalty. (Even for convicted terrorists) Women are guaranteed equality in all matters. There are excellent public schools. There is not the wide gap in incomes and net worth evident in all Arab countries. Show me one Arab country without oil resources that has made similar strides. Israel's existence, I'm afraid, just makes for unfavorable comparisons. The pat answer I often hear is that they couldn't have done it without US help. There are many examples where generous aide from the US did not result in such positive results.

[Johnny_D]

"Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo."
- H. G. Wells (1866-1946)

The bitter enmity against Israel derives in large part from the sour grapes of Arabs who must wonder, how it is that while even under almost constant attack, Israel has created a vibrant modern culture, a thriving agriculture and a home for learning and the arts. Medical and other technological "breakthroughs" are not uncommon. There are research hospitals, universities and conservatories. Consider that Israel's economy is larger than the aggregate of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt combined. Israel grew this economy while it absorbed over a half million Jewish refugees from Arab lands and was forced to dedicate a huge portion of their national budget to defense. In Israel there is universal health care. There is no death penalty. (Even for convicted terrorists) Women are guaranteed equality in all matters. There are excellent public schools. There is not the wide gap in incomes and net worth evident in all Arab countries. Show me one Arab country without oil resources that has made similar strides. Israel's existence, I'm afraid, just makes for unfavorable comparisons. The pat answer I often hear is that they couldn't have done it without US help. There are many examples where generous aide from the US did not result in such positive results.

First off I am going to thank Azycote for posting all of the above, very interesting reading.

Second off I am going to state that i fear i have not the iq to debate at such level

However, the above statement.

As someone who has travelled many times in and around Israel (From the very north in the golan to the very south in Eilat) I often lament the above.

People who have never been to the middle east seem to have this idea of sand huts and old cars from the 1930's (Think cuba I guess)

Israel is an amazing country with superb facilities. From what i have observered first hand the arab communities also enjoy the benefits of the above. [Indeed my regular taxi driver from Ben Gurion is an arab chap who has often told me he would not leave israel for anything]

I have been in the market places where arabic foods and (They do this amazing sweet cheese thing, that is worth the flight alone!) clothes ect. Never seen the 'two sides' going for each other at all...

Just what i have observed with my own eyes.

JD

[rattler]

First off I am going to thank Azycote for posting all of the above, very interesting reading.

Second off I am going to state that i fear i have not the iq to debate at such level

I too would like to thank Azcoyote for standing up for what is RIGHT.
I have simply been at a loss of words trying to come up with a way to confront this. Palestinians have done a very effective job spreading lies...Lies designed with malice to hurt Israelis and Jews...and I for one am deeply hurt, but apparently not well enough because I live a relatively safe life here in the USA...But even here we're not perfectly safe. We see hatred directed towards us on a regular basis.
Try wearing a yarmulke in public just one day and you will feel a fraction of the bigotry, racism and outright hatred that we face everyday. Does the local church need to employ armed security guards? Believe it or not even here in the USA some synagogues have to employ guards. I'm lucky in that respect my synagogue does not have to. Our local community center has had their sign torn apart so that it said nothing more than JEW. If you've never been a victim of racism you can't even begin to understand.
Israel serves as a "safety net" for all Jewish people worldwide to ensure that what happened in the past will never happen again.