Wall In Palestine

[ghostofdavid]

First off I am going to thank Azycote for posting all of the above, very interesting reading.

Second off I am going to state that i fear i have not the iq to debate at such level

I too would like to thank Azcoyote for standing up for what is RIGHT.
I have simply been at a loss of words trying to come up with a way to confront this. Palestinians have done a very effective job spreading lies...Lies designed with malice to hurt Israelis and Jews...and I for one am deeply hurt, but apparently not well enough because I live a relatively safe life here in the USA...But even here we're not perfectly safe. We see hatred directed towards us on a regular basis.
Try wearing a yarmulke in public just one day and you will feel a fraction of the bigotry, racism and outright hatred that we face everyday. Does the local church need to employ armed security guards? Believe it or not even here in the USA some synagogues have to employ guards. I'm lucky in that respect my synagogue does not have to. Our local community center has had their sign torn apart so that it said nothing more than JEW. If you've never been a victim of racism you can't even begin to understand.
Israel serves as a "safety net" for all Jewish people worldwide to ensure that what happened in the past will never happen again.

I know several churches that have security guards. In Louisville, Kentucky, there is a church called Southeast and it is a megachurch. Their main man, Dave Stone, constantly received death threats from crazies and I have heard that a few elders also act as security guards. Unlike many religious fundamental crazies, Stone hasn't said anything inflammatory deserving of death remarks and I wouldn't really lump him in the same catagory as a fundamentalist.

I think that if most people stare at a kippah, it isn't because they dislike Jewish people or are projecting some sort of negativity, it is that they probably do not know what it is. I remember being at Disneyworld and being around 9 or so and asking why such small hats were worn by a group of people. My dad pulled me aside and tried his best to explain that it was a form of Jewish expression and was similiar to the way my United Pentecostal grandmother only wore skirts.

I'll post more later!

[Sonthert]

Although some may deem your argument not worthy of response, I am taking the trouble to answer your assertions. The damage you do in repeating the libel is equal to or worse than its' first iteration. You are just repeating the big lie over and over again. My job is to make this obvious to all readers.

About the "security fence." Separation of feuding parties is not challenged when a judge issues a restraining order to keep conflicts from being resolved through violence. Ideally, the UN should be poised to fill this role, but they are a completely dysfunctional and ineffective force. Since they have abdicated their peace keeping duties, it falls to Israel to defend themselves.

You claim that the fence is barbaric. The ancient Greeks were dominated for a time by Sparta a Greek city-state. The Spartan king declared (paraphrased)"Sparta will have no walls but the points of its spears." After conquering Athens, another city-state, their terms for peace included the condition that the Athenian city walls were destroyed. For about three centuries they enslaved the Mycenaeans - fellow Greeks - all without the benefit of a wall around their city. Did the absence of a wall make their enslavement any less barbaric? A wall is a state of mind. Context does matter. I addressed this in a previous post, but my point remains unchallenged. A physical fence can come down in a day or a week. The pablum of prejudice and hate Palestinians are weaned on is far more persistent and pernicious.

I refuse to get drawn into a silly pissing contest. You are completely out of line for calling my points libelous or lies. They are not unique, they are not based on disinformation. Your opinion is not the god-honest gospel, just because you see it that way, doesn't make it so. Its an opinion and yours is no more holy than mine. So stop sky-piloting around this thread. Thanks.

In fact, since you have to resort to calling other well-founded opinions "lies" I would say you know you have nothing to back up your point. My points are clear and obvious, and now you have nothing to resort to but calling them lies. You say it IS moral, but back it up with a few scraps of flimsy unrelated material. You haven't justified the morality of it. Which is UNJUSTIFIABLE (Emphasis mine...oh, PS just because you put bold and large print in your posts doesn't make your points any better...it just suggests that they are bullshit in larger type) Thats from a general perspective, on a point by point basis:

You are talking about feuding parties, I am talking about millions of people. Your point is clearly irrelevant. It might be customary for a judge to sentence prison time to a person who committed a felony, but you can't use that logic and put every person in a community in jail. This sounds like an extension of the composition fallacy in logic. You are "imprisoning" and treating Palestinians as all terrorists or all criminals. This is, odious, to any concept of justice. The Japanese were interned in this USA during WWII for being the wrong type of person. Were some of them spies for the Japanese? probably. Is it reasonable to treat them all like spies because some of them are? Of course not..any sane person can see that. The Nazis used the auspices of security in rounding up the Jews pre WWII, claiming some were spies and saboteurs. It was wrong then too. Yes, there are Palestinian terrorists. No, it is still wrong to treat them all like terrorists.

As to your point regarding the Greeks...are you proposing then, that the Palestinians are slaves? Your point seems unrelated. I will challenge your unchallenged point...your assumption that all Palestinians are raised in the same way is bigoted and prejudiced...and absurd on the face of it. It is the exact same mindset that lets bigoted people desicrate synagogues...they assume all jews are all the same (cheap, conniving, mean, conspiratorial) which of course is false...isn't it? So, you should, from an objective point, understand that people who desicrate synagogues are identical to the people that advocate all Palestinians are terrorists or raised on hate...that is, if you never generalize about people (Mexicans are lazy, Asians are intelligent) and regard each person individually, you could never desicrate a synagogue or build a fence around the Palestinian areas. You have to generalize a characteristic about a group of people to do act against them as a single group. Of course, if you convict somebody of a crime in a legitimate court of law, that is different, then you can freely treat all felons in a similar way, although they are still entitled to some rights as humans. That isn't the case with the Palestinians at all...you want to treat all Palestinians in the same way, without a trial...If you can make a successful case that all Palestinians are raised on hatred and all are terrorists, then perhaps your fence is justified. I know many people, from many walks of life. I would never say that I could typify Palestinians as a group. Some are hate-filled, others have no care or concern about the specifics of the situation. Likewise for Israelis or people who have visited Israel, some of them are angry, rapidly supporting Israel, others are more circumspect. To propose that you can blanket a group of people with a single characteristic is the height of arrogance.

"A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on."
- Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

That "almost everyone" condemns Israel should come as no surprise considering the constant and loud litany of false claims their detractors have made over the last 60 years. This is precisely how the big lie works.

I am suggesting that the world's support of Israel has been substantially eroded from a concerted propaganda effort. This has been orchestrated and financed by oil-rich sheiks and their spiritual leaders. They are more offended that the Jew who they dearly loved to push around in their own societies should hold any kind of power. It really flies in the face of their presumed superiority. This is a very-well considered, effective and intelligent tactic. One should not confuse it with the truth, however.

Eric, you have so clearly been seduced as you repeat the same exact rhetoric they employ. What happened to you six years ago? Does your epiphany preclude any appeals to reason? Did your investigation of the "facts" include a review of resources such as Myths and Facts online? Or is your position "don't confuse me with the facts." Or will you just dismiss inconvenient facts as Israeli propaganda?

Perhaps you will take a look, if only out of mere curiosity as to where I get support for my arguments. Perhaps others following this thread will do so. Next time you feel the urge to hurl brick bats at Israel, you may wish to consult:

Since you have stated your ignorance of the particulars of peace negotiations, why don't you check what the Palestinians left on the table when they walked away from Taba? Then come back and tell us, o.k.? You will find a completely factual account there.

I am not an original thinker on this, and don't have time for the required scholarship. Not that I can't be bothered to, just I have to earn a living and this takes most of my waking hours. Others have dedicated careers to this and I must rely on their published findings.

When unholy words emanate from the faces of "holy men" Jewish ears pick up. Eric, believe it or not, we are students of history. ONE thing history has taught us is things can turn to shit in a hurry. And when it does our "friends" have a way of becoming really scarce. We ignore this at our peril.

Of course, when people are confronted with truth or overwhelmingly obvious logic, and can't raise the most feeble of points in opposition, they frequently scream "Propaganda!" or "Lies!". Just because there are a small, vocal group of Arabs/Middle Easterners who hate Jews doesn't mean they all do. The majority of muslim spiritual leaders I've met speak freely and when prompted of Jews no differently than anybody else. The majority of muslims, are normal people in every respect, not hate-filled mongers. Where is your source for this, you are again, in a most bigoted fashon, proclaiming that my points are not the truth because they are eschewed by a group who might be interested in perpetrating propaganda. You are inductively proclaiming my points false. Of course, aou claim they are false with little support, I cite real sources, clearly draw out conclusions and somehow mine are false.

It is not propaganda to say you can't throw a blanket generalization over a group of people (Palestinians are terrorists) and then treat them all the same as if all are guilty of the same crime. What if, in Germany, somebody had stood up and said "You won't treat all Jews the same, you won't deprive them of life, liberty or property with due process." Could the halocaust have been averted? Instead, the propaganda swirled, all about how bad the Jews were, throwing a blanket generalization over them. Then Somebody built a fence. I'm sure there were people saying "Those Jews are dangerous, they need to be separated." and some people might have been saying "Its temporary, we can always tear the fence down.". It was no more true or right then as it is now. Step two is the fence or the wall or the ovens. It doesn't matter. Step one to a halocaust or a crime of hatred is painting some people with the same grimy brush, casting them in the light of evil, believing they are all the same. It is beliefs like these that start halocausts and every nasty thing that history has ever vomited out on humanity. When we stop generalizing about people, the halocausts stop. Plain and simple. Refute that point.

In the roaring twenties, no Jew in Germany could have had an clue that in the next decade they would become completely marginalized, disenfranchised, dehumanized and ultimately incinerated in industrial ovens after being worked to death to support the Wehrmacht. Had they read Mein Kampf, and taken it seriously, they may have taken steps to save themselves. But being people of reason, they underestimated the power of "the big lie." They underestimated the credulity of the masses. Big mistake.

Never Again.

Who today could also believe this crap? Here's a clue. They also believe the 9/11 attacks were a US/Israeli conspiracy to justify the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. According to news reports (wish I could be more specific) 90 percent of Egyptians accept this as fact. No one ever lost a bet underestimating the credulity of the Arab street.

You have opined a couple times that the Jews, familiar as they are with oppression should have more compassion for the Palestinian's situation. Here we have two survivors of a shipwreck fighting for a piece of flotsam that will only keep one of their heads above water. How much compassion do you have for the other in this situation, Eric? Honestly, now, how much?

The shipwreck I refer to is what happened to the Palestinians when they vacated their homes so five arab armies could execute a scorched-earth policy. They were instructed to do so by their spiritual leaders and exhorted by constant radio broadcasts from bellicose regimes that surrounded the reborn Israeli state. They were not marched out like Native Americans on the trail of tears. Nor were they held hostage. Those who threw in with the Israelis have become Israeli Arabs. Using any measure you choose, they have more freedoms and opportunities - a better and freer life - than their brethren anywhere else in the Arab world. I think this demonstrates a degree of societal compassion that is extraordinary, considering the circumstances.

I am fighting back against the big lie, because I think it's just too dangerous to let it stand unanswered.

Had the Germans not bought in to generalizations about the Jews, like you're making about the Palestinians, it could have been averted completely, all people have to do is act sanely and rationally and everything will be OK.

I believe in no god sir, but, if I were to pray I would pray for one thing, "Never Again." but not just for one group or religion, but for all mankind.

Your shipwreck imagery is fascinating, but irrelevant. All that needs to happen is for Palestinians and Israelis to get together and unify. To use your imagery, there is a piece of debris that is large enough for both to survive, but neither one wants to share the debris.

Gee, yeah, I agree, but Palestine is the responsibility of Israel...say what you want about Jordan/Egypt/.Syria, etc...the Palestinians are not them any more than there is a diversity of opinions between Mexican-Americans and Mexicans. I know several Mexican-Americans that don't like Mexicans...who keeps pointing out that the rest of the arab world has no use for the Palestinians...so why do the actions of Arab neighbors in the past have anything to do with the relations between Israel and a minority in Israel today? The only answer is the obviously bigoted they're all arabs/muslims.

(Excerpted from Wikipedia)
Mein Kampf stuff
Mein Kampf was sixth on the Palestinian bestseller list, circa September 1999,[7]and the book, translated into Arabic, has been widely distributed in the Arab-Muslim world from the 1930s to the present.[8]


Your position that everyone condemns Israel so they must be wrong is based on which branch on logic? The truth is not a popularity contest. Your observations and the conclusion you have drawn from them entitle you to an opinion, but your argument is based on anecdotal information, and inference not the kind of hard citations you have asked for.

Its a popular book...even you are reading it.

No, it is not a popularity contest. You keep referring to it as truth. It is a matter that Israel, as a country, has a responsibility to act in a certain way. If they do not, whatever their justifications, others in the world will criticize them. Which is the case here. If my case is weak, yours is weaker. No truth is involved, just morality, which Israel has, in the treatment of the Palestinians, a dearth of.

You keep talking about everybody's propaganda...is it possible you have been swallowing propaganda, too? Everything you read is correct and true, while everything I read/hear/research is false. You have an extraordinarily large opinion of your own ideas. I am stating opinions, you are stating self-proclaimed facts. You haven't proposed any facts in the matter, just opinions, same as mine...but since you are calling them facts, and they obviously, as facts, don't need support, your opinions are without support. Almost everytime a person erroneously refers to an opinion as a fact, its because there is little to support for their opinion...which doesn't change it...all still opinions.

Let's remember, there was a time when most people believed the world was flat and was the center of the universe. It was so obvious to them.

Some still do...some people operate on theories both likely and unlikely, standing on few facts. Other people bellow from the tops of soapboxes about how everything they say is right. Things are only completely obvious when a person so desperately wants to believe their truth, they will close their eyes to the world around them.

You claim Israel must heel to the authority of international bodies. What about the Palestinians? Consider the UN Partition of Palestine in 1948. Although their borders were indefensible, Israel accepted the UN plan. For the sake of peace they accepted around 12 percent of the territory of the former Transjordan. As you know, the Arab League met the next day and rejected the UN plan. Thus they repudiated international authority. Five arab armies invaded with the explicit and unabashed objective of murdering every Jew they could find. Israel was not the aggressor by any account. This was to be an ethnic cleansing, Eric.

Absolutely everything now must viewed against that backdrop. Now-a-days, Palestinians find it expedient to use the UN to bring them closer to the same goal. A goal they have never completely repudiated. Why would they turn to this forum when they unanimously rejected the authority of that same body from the very start? Since members of the Arab League prevailed on them to vacate their homes, isn't it the Arab League that should be responsible for finding them new homes? Not the United Nations. Not the US. Not Israel. This is not a video game you can reset to level one every time you lose. There are consequences.

All countries must make themselves accountable to their peers. No country is above the judgement of other countries...to say one is to say its superior. Yes, as I have pointed out several times, yes the neighbors of Israel acted inappropriately. That has little bearing on the the case of Israel and the Palestinian situation today (The son shall not answer for the sins of the father)...the Palestinians don't have to answer for Syria's government of almost 60 years ago. Why should they? Your required backdrop is neither required nor a backdrop...its a coat of propaganda paint...By a similar logic, we could intern Asians in the US today, this minute, send them off to camps and put up a fence because Japan attacked us 60 years ago. Although the Japanese are Asian (Palestinians are Arabs), is it OK for a country (the US) that was attacked 60 years ago to use that as an excuse to treat a minority (Asians, Palestinians) in a matter not commensurate with international law or established morality? It was bad enough we imprisoned just the Japanese DURING WWII. Your points regarding the Arab-Israeli war do not pertain, as far as I can see.

No, Israel was not the aggressor, but that doesn't mean that they haven't been the aggressor more recently.

I am all for an end to discrimination. Like yourself, I believe that people should be free to live where they please, Whites and Blacks, Arabs and Jews .. But how does it not discriminate against Jews when you tell them their presence is outright illegal?. Do you support the deportation of all Jews from Palestine and Israel and the dissolution of the State of Israel? Is this what you mean when you say you oppose Israel? Please state your position explicitly.

I think the state of Israel should make some very seminal changes...I'm not sure they are prepard or willing to make them. Its going to end up badly for somebody, probably the Palestinians. Israel did take some questionable steps and employed some immoral policies early in their statehood. I oppose Israel's course as a country, I believe that the Palestinians have every right to land taken from them illegally (if such claims can be substantiated), they have rights to participate in the governance of Israel and equal treatment under the law. Israel does not treat them equally or fairly. Israel is a military pawn of the US this is wrong on both parties part, as well. This is side matter, of course. It should pertain to the fence...lets not hijack this thread. Hijacking is something a Palestinian would do.

Mao Tse Tung wrote, " Revolution only comes from the barrel of a gun." But the Chinese Revolution and the "Cultural revolution" of the '60's in China has resulted in a very militaristic and authoritarian society where the threat of imprisonment for political improprieties is constant. China is a society in chains. I would not wish that on my "cousins," the Palestinians. Consider all your options, my friends. You deserve better.

Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King had the right idea. A sustained campaign of non violent, civil disobedience mobilized world sympathy far more effectively than and terrorism ever could. It mobilized consciousness within India and and England. In the end, the Brits quit India. Today India is the world's most populous democracy. A wide variety of political expression is tolerated in India.

And since "the world" as you say, already thinks Palestinians are the oppressed party, it should be a cakewalk. As a start, Palestinians could boycott Israeli employers, shops, markets, hotels, ships, restaurants, hospitals, doctors, universities, ambulances, pharmacies, dentists, busses, taxis, airplanes, theaters, orchestras, and the like until Israel feels the pinch.

Why should the Palestinians do that? They are partly responsible for Israel's success, they should share in the fruits...not have to protest for equality. Can you honestly say that the Palestinians are treated equally? Of course not...they are not treated equally, that is immoral.

If a thousands of Palestinians held hands along the length of the fence singing "we shall overcome." It would make them a lot more poignant to world sympathies. Even to my own.

You should go over and help organize them...it would prove your good intentions!

The bitter enmity against Israel derives in large part from the sour grapes of Arabs who must wonder, how it is that while even under almost constant attack, Israel has created a vibrant modern culture, a thriving agriculture and a home for learning and the arts. Medical and other technological "breakthroughs" are not uncommon. There are research hospitals, universities and conservatories. Consider that Israel's economy is larger than the aggregate of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt combined. Israel grew this economy while it absorbed over a half million Jewish refugees from Arab lands and was forced to dedicate a huge portion of their national budget to defense. In Israel there is universal health care. There is no death penalty. (Even for convicted terrorists) Women are guaranteed equality in all matters. There are excellent public schools. There is not the wide gap in incomes and net worth evident in all Arab countries. Show me one Arab country without oil resources that has made similar strides. Israel's existence, I'm afraid, just makes for unfavorable comparisons. The pat answer I often hear is that they couldn't have done it without US help. There are many examples where generous aide from the US did not result in such positive results.

Your celebration is perhaps warranted, but much could be said about any country with an oppressed minority...they are generally doing well, celebrating with wine made by an underclass. If you have minority that contributes to the prosperity, but doesn't share in it, by being treated equally or having a fence put up around them, your celebration is hollow and your wine tainted by another man's blood. Woman are treated equally, but not the Palestinians, what does that say of this equality? It is transparent, a characture of civility. There is universal health care while the Israelis release and launch ordinance on Palestinian areas...Its only fair they stop the bleeding when a woman loses her leg and miscarries her baby. It however, sir, doesn't address the unfairness of it all. Was Rome great because of the Roman people or because of the Roman Slaves? No way to know, but the slaves will always bring up the question, the doubt, cast a shadow on the legitamacy of their civilization. As well the Palestinians in Israel...Israel will never acheive any degree of greatness until they treat the Palestinains equitably.

P.S. I looked at your website, there are some glaring inconsistencies (from what I've read/heard), although scholarly sounding, its just another scholarly voice from the opposite side of the aisle as some of my sources...you could interpret anything from at least two sides. We had a legatimate reason for interring Japanese during WWII, but in the final analysis, one side falls away as specious...never before has anybody ever been able to reasonably defend the summary judgement that an entire group of people was to be treated with guilt and suspicion like Israel has placed on the Palestinians...nor will anybody ever...its an affront to humanity and to any semblance civilized people. I would like to order the paperbacks to read that they have on the website, but they only sell 40 at a time...anybody want to buy in?

[Sonthert]

First off I am going to thank Azycote for posting all of the above, very interesting reading.

Second off I am going to state that i fear i have not the iq to debate at such level

I too would like to thank Azcoyote for standing up for what is RIGHT.
I have simply been at a loss of words trying to come up with a way to confront this. Palestinians have done a very effective job spreading lies...Lies designed with malice to hurt Israelis and Jews...and I for one am deeply hurt, but apparently not well enough because I live a relatively safe life here in the USA...But even here we're not perfectly safe. We see hatred directed towards us on a regular basis.
Try wearing a yarmulke in public just one day and you will feel a fraction of the bigotry, racism and outright hatred that we face everyday. Does the local church need to employ armed security guards? Believe it or not even here in the USA some synagogues have to employ guards. I'm lucky in that respect my synagogue does not have to. Our local community center has had their sign torn apart so that it said nothing more than JEW. If you've never been a victim of racism you can't even begin to understand.
Israel serves as a "safety net" for all Jewish people worldwide to ensure that what happened in the past will never happen again.

I agree with you, on most points, it is unfair, but treating the Palestinians unfairly isn't justified by that. It may be right for you, but it isn't right to the Palestinians, and I have been arguing, it isn't right to humanity. The Palestinians are treated unfairly...these accomplishments of Israel will always be tarnished and in time, the hatred countries spread with injustice comes back doubly. Lincoln freed the slaves not because he like blacks, but because he knew it would destroy the USA...already seeds of anger and dissent overthe issue surfaced...in the mid 1800s. So, too, will be the plight of Israel and Palestine, the problem won't go away...it will only come back later, larger, with more dead people and more destruction of those beautiful things that Israel worked to build. Injustice is only a balloon payment-loan...never a solution. You say the Palestinians have spread lies...all 9M of them? Is it possible yours is the propaganda and mine the voice of reason trying to crowd its way in? The prejudice you feel from dumb-fuck ignorant pricks is the prejudice the Palestinians live in. Why is it necessary? Everyone keeps saying its necessary...two parties who can't have a common ground. I'll tell ya a secret, if you promise not to tell anyone. I believe that Israel has a far larger capacity for acting civilized than the Palestinians...they are a larger country. They need to be the ones that pursue unification in good faith.

[benny]

I cant be bothered reading all sonthert's thread..


a) i think the way you're addressing Azcoyote is inappropriate for a moderator. You should rethink and edit it, its an embarrassment to the forum.

Why should the Palestinians do that? They are partly responsible for Israel's success, they should share in the fruits...not have to protest for equality. Can you honestly say that the Palestinians are treated equally? Of course not...they are not treated equally, that is immoral.

How Have the palenstinains contributed to Israel's success? Oh yeah, the constant bombardment of Rockets into Sderot right?

Or wait, the bombing of Hebrew University in Jerusalem?

Or wait, having to implement checkpoints around all our majour cities, that really contributed to israel's success right?

Or having to build a majour fence, that helped too?

Or running away from Peace talks in 1948, and leading the rest of the region to hate Israel, and make purchasing of ANYTHING impossible, without the arab world boycotting any israel-supplying countries? And then wanting a right of return, to a country that now, is not palestine, and is not where they once lived, nor do they have a right or deserve reentry.

The only way that they have perceivably contributed to israel's success, is because we've had always had enemy's breathing down our throats, that out of necessity, Israel's weapons industrty is one of the greater facets of their economy.



c) dont you DARE compare jews in germany with palestinians. The circumstances are so different, that any remote parallel is so vague, its like tits on a bull, in terms of comparitive usefullness.


Did the jews shoot rockets @ germans?

Suicide bomb?

Incite hatred against the germans?

No, a resounding no.

The jews were a facet of European society. They werent a different people, or a different country. They never had their own governments, terrorists groups, nothing. You're comparison, illustrates your vein ignorance. Edited February 17, 2007 by benny

[rattler]

Sonethert...I just want to say thank God we are in the USA and allowed differing opinions. The fact that we are unable to see eye to eye on this subject does not make either one of us a bad person. I'd gladly sit down and share a hookah with you any day . Just like to point out that although I disagree with you on this I do not dislike you over it...some people passing through this thread might indeed think we are a feuding group of people.

From here on out I'm just going to agree to disagree with you...I'm not going to change your opinion and you won't change mine, but you still seem like a hell of a nice guy. And we have both found something that I think we can agree on. Peace should be the ultimate goal in Israel.

[azcoyote]

Guess we have to agree to disagree. I asked you straight up if you wanted to dismantle the State of Israel. YOur reply was to say something about "seminal changes." I can see why you won't answer. Cause the next question has to be what happens to the Israelis. And you don't have a socially acceptable solution to that problem. Mein Kampf is a popular book, as you point out. You have called my published sources questionable, at odds with your information. Yet you will not reveal what is your source of information. Not a level playing field. So don't answer, I've heard enough.

I do have a question for Apollo. I find it very odd that you would initiate any topic in "serious discussions" without having a serious opinion of your own. You certainly don't need our permission to post a link to some protest guerilla theater video. I would run it by a mod if I were you. So what's your agenda here? Just trying to stir up shit, or what. Or were you put up to it by someone who wished to appear dispassionate, to be interested as in a mere intellectual exercise? Hard to evince such nonchalance when you initiate a topic.

I am not accusing anyone of anything, just it looks suspicious as hell to me. But taking you at face value....
Apollo, if you want to know how we all feel about it, perhaps you should set up a poll. Otherwise you are only hearing from a handful of people relative to the total page views this topic has generated. Here's some questions I'd really like to suggest:

1. My opinion is closest to: (select one)

a. The Israeli security fence has saved many lives on both sides and thus it is justified for the present.

b. The Wall in Palestine is unjust and barbaric and must be taken down asap, regardless of loss of life.

c. I don't know

d. Who cares?

2. My opinion is ________ after reading every post in this thread.

a. completely unchanged
b. unchanged but with some new doubts
c. unchanged and more certain
d. changed to favor Israelis
e. changed to favor Palestinians


Divide responses by response to question one. This should be interesting.

[Sonthert]

Please note, I guess rules regarding editing have been changed...I have to get used to them...I'm used to unlimited number of edits.

I would like to have cleaned up some of my stuff in my last 2 posts...sorry...I type in a rather stream-of-consciousness thing.

Additionally, a couple of things came out a little rougher than I intended to Dan, sorry. I was a little miffed by the whole bold print, large type thing. I didn't like having my points called libelous or lies either. They are neither. You are a good sport about it, though, I appreciate it.

[Sonthert]

Dan: My current line of reasoning is more or less an echo of Noam Chomsky. Feel free to read up at www.amnesty.org if you would like some more sources of information that look at the situations/events differently than your source does. I don't see you clicking your browser! tongue.gif

Ah, Benny, Benny. I appreciate your criticizing my demeanor, but I don;t think there are any requirements for the opinions people have to be moderators. You may not agree with my opinions, but they are not the reason. I understand your reluctance to read my entire post...if you already have your mind made up why bother letting fresh air in? I do indeed disagree with your assessment of my parallel between Israel (Palestinians) and Germany (Jews) as ethnic minorities. Just because authors you agree with call the parallel absurd doesn't mean its universally thought as such. Don't dare to tell me not to dare to express my opinion. How dare you attempt to censor me? A little facist blood running through there? First amendment man, first amendment (of the United States Constitution). As a moderator, I will assume yours was not a threat...although it does border on intimidation which is expressly forbidden on the rules of this forum.

I have heard nobody say "Could be wrong, maybe." Everybody is so damned certain...I could be wrong. I could be the victim of propaganda, but I am basing my opinion on the information from both sides on the matter is wrong, while the pro-Israel side seems to be basing theirs on this report and that information from pro-Israeli sources...of course there is probably completely different views on Al Jazeera or in Palestinian encampments on the same information/reports. Disregarding any information from either side, I see the Palestinians, agressive, hostile people set opposite to the Israelis, also aggressive and hostile...where does the root of the tree of violence lie? Does it lie on the side of Israel or on the side of Palestine? It doesn't matter. Both parties are acting shamefully. The view of the Palestinians being "pushed out" I have slightly more sympathy for, because that is what happened, seemingly. Israeli settlers crossing boundaries, encroaching on Palestinian territory should make this point clear. Israel, the stronger of the two, practices discrimination...quite apprantly, which is also an abomination. I speak of the morality of the situation, which nobody wants to address...because you can't justify discrimination morally. This fence is to further separate the good guys from the bad guys...the only problem is Israel has summarily judged all Palestinians guilty without benefit of trial or due process.

So, Dan, to answer your question more fully...If I were to judge a country by one policy, one of discrimination, and base my opinion on a single point, I would say I am opposed to Israel. On a deeper analysis...Israel maintains nuclear weapons (presumably aided or supplied by the USA) which encourages other countries like Iran to pursue nuclear technology. I feel Israel's stance, although understandable on many levels, is one that is escalating hostility and aggression in the region. If Iraq or North Korea are terrorist nations for developing nuclear weapons, then what does that make Israel? Israel wanted weapons inspections in Iraq but refuses inspections of their nuclear arsenal (or lack of one)...hypocritical, right? Israel openly attacks soft targets in Palestine (designated as terrorist targets). I would consider that aggressive. Their rationale makes sense, but their response doesn't...any more than the US's response to 9/11 makes sense. I see this last point as the one that sours world opinion against Israel more than anything, for the matter. I also think the establishment of Palestine (later Israel) by Great Britain and the UN was done poorly, creating some of the problems that persist to this day, but Israel does not help matters with their policies (discrimination, segregation, meeting aggression with aggression). Should Israel be there? I don't think it matters. Whatever you call a country doesn't matter as long the people of that country are well served by their government. Which isn't the case, here. It would be real convenient to cast off the Palestinians into their own country, but we really wouldn't have solved the problem...we would have just changed the encyclopedia. Besides...what's next...the Druze problem? The problem with the Israeli muslims? The problem is intolerance. It is rife. Am I opposed to Israel? I am no more opposed to Israel than I am to a boxer in a boxing match. If somebody asks what I think of boxer#1, my opinion may be negative, that doesn't mean I'm rooting for boxer #2. If someone asks about the boxer#2, my opinion may also be negative. Which it is in this case. If you see my point. I do believe that Israel has more power in the situation to make peace, but choose not to. Yes, everybody can list a hundred terrorist attacks. One side lists the Palestinians attacking the Israelis, the other the Israelis attacking the Palestinians. Whats generally true is if one fighter is much larger and more powerful than the other, the smaller fighter, once committed is less likely to stop...the larger fighter has to be the one to stop and back off...or kill the smaller fighter. Which ever.

[nasirjonesether]

Honestly Sonthert, I don't think you're too knowledgeable on the situation. You've made countless baseless claims and plain wrong facts in this thread and it shows that you need to brush up on some of the information. I think that a lot of your posts are just guesses and assumptions, like that the US gave Israel nukes.

[Sonthert]

Honestly Sonthert, I don't think you're too knowledgeable on the situation. You've made countless baseless claims and plain wrong facts in this thread and it shows that you need to brush up on some of the information. I think that a lot of your posts are just guesses and assumptions, like that the US gave Israel nukes.

I stand corrected. I was mistakenly under the impression that the US had supplied U-235 to Israel. Great Britain supplied much of the materials to Dimona. I really haven't seen or heard from anybody in this matter that are that knowledgable, really. I'm not a foreign policy or relations specialist...I have opinions. They are founded on information, same as everyone elses. What makes you so educated? Do you have a PhD in the subject? I would offer you are not qualified to say my opinion is uneducated. Who made you the expert? You? Because you are biased, you see yourself as informed and knowledgeable, but none of us really are completely informed in the matter. At least, I'm offering my opinion...where's yours? Back it up with something while your at it. Much of the pro-Israel side has also made blatantly wrong statements, too. Generally just vague ones, though. I'm sure the average reader can see the distinction between my points which are tied to specifics and the vague statements of the pro-Israeli side. Obviously, the propaganda machine works both sides. From observation, I have noticed that people who are infected with propaganda are usually the loudest, but vague while people who'se views are founded on reason can be loud, but very specific about information.

Everyone still on the fence, please take some time and look at the gross human-rights violations documented, on both sides, but more on the Israeli side (since Israel has the Palestinians and the Lebanese to pick on), by Amnesty International at

www.amnesty.org

Here is one pertaining to this topic (11/2005)

"Solidarity in the Occupied Territories
Palestinians and Israeli activists come together in weekly peaceful protest in the West Bank

In the Palestinian village of Bil’in the construction by the Israeli army of the fence/wall through the West Bank has disastrous consequences. It will cut the villagers off from two thirds of their land, the main source of their livelihood.

For the past year the villagers have been holding peaceful demonstrations each week to protest against the fence/wall. They have been joined by Israeli and international activists. The weekly Palestinian-Israeli demonstrations and other activities in Bil’in have come to symbolize non-violent protest and solidarity between the two communities.

The Israeli army has responded with unwarranted force. Soldiers fire tear gas, stun grenades and rubber-coated metal bullets, and often beat and arrest demonstrators. Israeli peace activists are increasingly being prevented from reaching the village. The Israeli army has been imposing curfews, declaring the place a "closed military area" and turning back Israeli peace activists on the roads leading to the village. As a result fewer outsiders are present to witness the human rights abuses which the villagers suffer daily.

With the olive harvest underway, Israeli peace activists have joined the Palestinian villagers in Bil’in to pick olives in the fields which are being cut off from the village by the fence/wall. The route of the fence has been designed to appropriate large areas of Palestinian land and expand Israeli settlements, built in the Occupied Territories in violation of international law.

Although the Israeli authorities claim that the fence/wall is being built to "separate" Israel from the West Bank, more than 80 per cent of it is being erected on Palestinian land inside the occupied West Bank.

The International Court of Justice (ICJ) has called on Israel to cease constructing the fence/wall in the West Bank and dismantle the sections already built there. Israel continues to disregard the ICJ’s recommendation."

I think that the allegation is that the fence is really a clandestine attempt to snatch more Palestinian lands, making the fence cut through Palestinian lands disproportionately and cleaving off large areas for Israeli settlers. To the average reader, notice that the article cites there are decent and conscientious Israelis who are protesting the situation with the Palestinians. Gosh. There are even Israelis who are opposed to the situation. I guess my footing isn't that slippery after all. Edited March 12, 2007 by Sonthert

[rattler]

Palestinian lands

No such thing as Palestine so how can there be Palestinian land?

[kornkitten42]

I do have a question for Apollo. I find it very odd that you would initiate any topic in "serious discussions" without having a serious opinion of your own. You certainly don't need our permission to post a link to some protest guerilla theater video. I would run it by a mod if I were you. So what's your agenda here? Just trying to stir up shit, or what. Or were you put up to it by someone who wished to appear dispassionate, to be interested as in a mere intellectual exercise? Hard to evince such nonchalance when you initiate a topic.


Divide responses by response to question one. This should be interesting.

OFF TOPIC FOR A SECOND AND ONLY FOR ONE... SORRY!!!

I am not going to openly discuss my feeling/ opinions on the actual topic until i get off of work and have the time to properly type my response but* with that being said,
why would it matter if he doesn't have an opinion on the matter? I bring up things all the time to have a "discussion" or type of conversation and often play devils advicate ie religion, sex, abortion etc. Just for the pure sake of having something to talk about. It has sparked an interesting and long debate over avid hookah smokers who have very ornaite opinions and knowledge of the subject.

I for one didn't know alot about this subject but due to apollo initiating this discussion i know feel more educated about it. i applaud apollo. Kudos to you man.
As to everyone else including az i enjoyed reading your thoughts and opinions. right on.

[wuonice]

http://nkusa.org/


"I do not agree that the dog (palestinians) in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place."
--winston churchill

"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."
-- David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

"Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population."
-- David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.

"This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy."
-- Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971

"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.

"The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever."
-- Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.

"The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the mass aliya (=Jewish immigration), and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country."
-- Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir declares at a Tel Aviv memorial service for former Likud leaders, November 1990. Jerusalem Domestic Radio Service.

"The settlement of the Land of Israel is the essence of Zionism. Without settlement, we will not fulfill Zionism. It's that simple."
-- Yitzhak Shamir, Maariv, 02/21/1997.

"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

"The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more"....
-- Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000

"If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force...."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.

"I would have joined a terrorist organization."
-- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.

"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.

"If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country . . . We come from Israel, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that?"
--Ben Gourion

"Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online Edited March 29, 2007 by wuonice

[maramos]

snip

Next time, use a source which isn’t so biased
http://www.jcpa.org/ngo/ngo-4-AI.html
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/tobin092600.asp
http://israelbehindthenews.com/Archives/Apr-06-01.htm#sane
http://web.israelinsider.com/Views/67.htm
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=8141
http://www.adl.org/Israel/jenin/

Anyway, I wish I was a member of the form earlier so I could have refuted the majority of your points in an orderly way, I’m just going to go through a couple of them.

The Thomas Jefferson quite you refer to in your first post was actually a Benjamin Franklin quote which is "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety" The quote isn't even relevant to the topic, its intent was to suggest that people who are willing to give up their freedoms to the government in exchange for safety, will soon have neither. The Israelis aren't giving up any liberties by building a wall

You also seem to think the purpose of the wall is to hold people in, when its actually to keep people out. The only people within the wall are the Israelis and the arabs who actually choose to live in peace with them. The wall doesn't prevent movement between it either, it just puts checkpoints, checkpoints which almost every country employs on its boarders. And walls works quite well, Great Wall of China worked quite well, Berlin wall worked perfectly.

1 in 1000 palestinians are pieces of shit?
http://www.factsofisrael.com/blog/archives/000099.html
http://www.pmw.org.il/Latest%20bulletins%20new.htm
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=11685

Israel cut off funds to Hamas because they are a known terrorist organization

You seem to like to use anecdotal evidence as opposed to fact

Last time i checked, nothing stops a palestinians from becoming a member of Israeli society, i even think they get voting rights. Most choose to live in camps rather then live among Jews

Israel didn’t kill 20k in Lebanon nor did they go in there unprovoked, while i can agree that invasion wasn't completely warranted, it wasn't unprovoked.

Have you ever seen Israel just kill innocents, i seriously doubt it other then perhaps a few isolated events. I think you would have to dig deeper to find times when palestinians actually meant killed military personal.

If you really believe there is no difference between a suicide bombing and collateral damage then it is quite clear that you opinions are quite biased and based on anything but facts. Do you think Israel wants to kill civilians, or do you think when a group is shooting at you and using women and children as shields there aren't many choices.

"Palestinians have free elections, carefully watched by foreign observers. The more democratic a country is, the less likely they are the aggressors."

Wow, when i read that, my respect for went down a little bit, common

"Talking to Palestinians and Israelis. From Israelis, its things like "Its not our fault, they did it first." or "Its complicated, there's lots of complexities in the Israeli government." "Its just the way it is/has to be." They brought it on themselves." or my favorite "You can't understand." They tend to be weak, excuses like "Why did you play ball in the house, Johnny?" lacking any substance or specifics. People, when they are telling the truth, as any cop on the beat will tell you, will often add specifics. People will be vague when they are lying or lack information. When you talk to Palestinians, they use phrases like "Its horrible.", "Like Hell", "They kill women and children.", and "They attack us day after day." but then they tell stories about riots, bombings and things of the sort, giving specific details. Which adds a certain verisimilitude to their side which is lacking in the Israeli accounts."

So because the palestinians are talented liars and are more descriptive they are in the right. They always seem to forget to say how the people were killed because they were working in a bomb making factory. It gets tiring for Israel to say a couple times a month that a suicide bomber killed 14 people at a market, or 24 at a night club, or 8 on a bus. Id like to tell you about some friends of mine who lived in a settlement in Israel for most of their lives. They told me how they used to have to go to school in bulletproof busses because the arabs would shoot at them from the hilltops, how they would all have to lay on the floor because sometimes bullets would penetrate the windows and every once in a while hit a kid. Also how one time someone was going to try and car bomb their settlement but their car couldn’t make it up the steep hill and IDF eventually came and handled it.

"From even conservative estimates, the Israelis detonate/launch many more devices on a daily basis than the Palestinians...the Palestinians on a good month set off 10 suicide bombs? If the Israelis even average one anti-terrorism campaign by bombing a building per day, that’s thirty."

Have you any proof of these numbers. Also what you are saying is Israel does 30 tactical military strikes a month, that’s much worse then 10 terrorist suicide bombers whose targets are civilians. I would also venture to say now with the wall there are much less then 10 suicide bombings a month, however now they seem to like rocketing populated areas.

Again, Hamas and many palestinians are liars, the articles i posted in the beginning show quite a few cases where palestinians claim one thing which couldn’t be further from the truth. You can’t believe everything you read. You also seem to paraphrase quite a bit, but never really link to all the “evidence” you have. I think the saddest thing is you may actually believe all the crap you spout out. Anyone actually educated enough on the subject to comment about it should have a decent knowledge of both sides, you clearly only have knowledge of one. Israel may have done some thing they aren’t proud of, but its nothing compared to what the palestinians/arabs have done to them.

[Sonthert]

Rattler: I did say in an earlier post that I was going to incorrectly use Palestinians to refer to those Arabs who chose not to join in peace with Israel. The non-Israeli arabs of the region.




Its like, listening to these voices around here, you'd think there weren't lots of people around the world that thought's Israel's actions to be immoral.

Welcome to the forum.

I find most of your points to be semantic arguments, very weak at best.

Gee. Got Franklin and Jefferson backwards. Boy, my points are just laying in shambles now.

Your obvious hatred of the Palestinians shows. Whether the Palestinians are bad people or not, they are still entitled to basic human rights, which Israel doesn't deem necessary to offer up. All of your points disregard their status as humans. They're bad people, so we can do whatever we want to them, their rights as people don't really matter. At least thats your perspective. Again, its barbaric. Whether they're bad people or not, they still have rights. Israel is barbaric in their treatment of the "Palestinians".

Still, people pick at this little bit, piece or that little piece. The moral argument is still avoided. How is not treating the "Palestinians" fairly acceptable?

Gee...walls hold people in, not keep them out...oops, its the other way around. Yours is a semantic argument. Who cares? Its a wall/fence. Thats the point. Whatever Israel says its primary function is doesn't really matter. You are correct, many countries have borders and fences along them. Unfortunately, its very rare to have fences deliminating borders within a common country. Its considered wrong, generally speaking. Thats why many people (including myself) make a comparison between apartheid South Africa and Israel. (I heard an intervioew hith Jimmy Carter and he made the same point regarding Israel and South Africa). When you start separating one set of people from another within a country, thats descrimination. Just because the Palestinians don't wish to acknowledge the existence of Israel doesn't morally allow them to be treated like second class citizens.

Nice websites...not biased are they? They have no references or anything to backup their points. One does mention a Reuters news source...thats not referenced. OK, its 66%, just for the sake of argument, the percentage of Palestinians who support the murder of unarmed Israeli citizens. There is a thing called due process, its a standard in civilized countries. What happens is if somebody commits a crime, they go to trial. Problem is, you're talking about people's opinions...they have comitted no crime. Actions are punishable, not ideas, except in a Nazi-type state. Whats more, you advocate then, presumably, treating all 100% of the Palestinians as thought they had the same opinions as the 66% and punishing them/descriminating against them, still with no trial, and yet showing that none of them have committed a crime.

Why is OK to treat the Palestinians differently from the Israelis, thought they have been never tried in a court of law? If they are really guilty of a crime, edjudicate them.

Israel fostered and helped HAMAS despite its extremist viewpoints, from what I've heard. When it became bigger, sure they cut them off...

How is what your saying facts more than what I'm saying is facts? Yours is barely based on "anecdotal information". You say what you say is a fact...how do you know? Can you prove it with independent, unbiased sources? Even independent, biased sources can work... something that has a level above lunatic with a website? The anti-Amnesty International websites don't really fit that. Some guy's website talking about why Amnesty International is dishonest...thats not scholarly nor independent. Why would Amnesty International be dishonest or wrong?

The Palestinians have had open elections and that makes you have less respect? Just because they are monsters doesn't mean they can't have free elections.

My little ramble that you seemed to have jumped all over was obviously intended to be just an out-loud thought process on my part...picking it apart is like criticizing a rough draft for not being complete. It wasn't intended to be. I was simply making the point, discounting all the obnoxious sources on both sides, what sense can be made of it? What seems to be, from a detached viewpoint, the irreducible points of the case?

"HAMAS are liars." Prove that. You say it like its a fact and repeat it like it is. No one person can lie all the time. Its impossible. Your blind hatred for these people is apparent, I can see why you wanted to chime in. Edited April 16, 2007 by Sonthert

[wuonice]

http://ifamericansonlyknew.org/


man what i really hate is when people cry antisemitism when someone says something bad about jews/israel (ironically arabs are also semitic). yet when someone says something wrong about arabs/muslims it's perfectly fine. Edited April 17, 2007 by wuonice

[ShishaFred]

Whether the Palestinians are bad people or not, they are still entitled to basic human rights, which Israel doesn't deem necessary to offer up. All of your points disregard their status as humans.

+1 , and nicely said. Reminds me of the French stand-up comic , Dieudonné. He made a couple of jokes about zionist jews and got a lot of death threats and now gives his shows in Quebec instead of France. I remember a bit where he said the word Palestinians , and two soldiers ( who watch him from inside some sort of bunker for the whole show , making sure he says the right stuff) tell him he can't say that , that he has to use words like vermin and demons instead.

[ezie]

Why do people call palestinian Beasts? Thats rude and inhumane. People should respect other people. I know that in Palastine there's suicide bombers and stuff which is very sensitive but labeling other people BEASTS is rude. Not all the people of palestine are suicide bombers and not all the Jews are bad. We are just Human and people just make mistake. Its when we learn to forgive then we can have hamony. Peace make the difference. PEACE and have a nice day you all and don't try to be greedy!!

[PerznPerversion]

Both sides are biased liars that incite hate upon eachother. I find myself depressed and confused because i cannot find the "truth". You research the subject and you see different things from both sides. which sides are right? theyre both most likely have little truth and alot of lies. Any souce that i can bring up can be refuted and im sick of all the lies!! Why cant i find truth anywhere? Only the government knows the truth and even then the shitty intel can be wrong. People wonder why i hate our education system, for the most part everything a professor tells you is his biased position.


As with people "quoting" the qu'ran i laugh at it. I dont believe it has any racism or prejudice in it and it is the "infallible" book. Now they have another book that alot of muslims read into, i cant think of the freaking name of it right now and im dieing cuz of it. But this book is fallible and alot of muslims seek wisdom from within this book. Maybe some of the quotes you're reading from are in this book. From my understanding the only way you can kill is self defense and oppression and in my opinion the palestinian people are being oppresed. I feel that one death is one death to many, and maybe they need to take the high moral ground and do what the great ghandi did.