How Far Is To Far?

[kornkitten42]

OK.... i was going through my daily activites of reading the posts and i saw this qoute....

I generally prefer Pit Bulls. Most of the 100 Pound "pit bulls" you see today aren't true APBT's, they were cross-bred somewhere down the line with mastiffs, etc. Although most people hate pitbulls because of the reputation the media gives them, they are some of the most loyal and loving breeds out there. Their temperment tests rank higher than poodles, golden retrivers, german sherards, etc.

ok.. ....... Their temperment tests rank higher than poodles, golden retriversgerman sherards, etc.
i call the bs card.. poodles and german shepards (especially with ears and nails) yes i agree they can have severe temperment problems ... but you've got it all wrong about goldens....

Goldens are loyal and loving dogs. They are mostly a submissive dog with retreival skills not actual true* hunting skills, they are very passive and not aggressive in the least. (Yes there are a few bad apples that can spoil the whole bunch)


I love pitties dont get me wrong that can be great dogs when they are properly trained. But i will never own a pittie. I'm not scared of pitties either, i've wrestled some of the meanest ass dogs you could ever imagen to make sure they are healthy from distemper and rabies and have had to pull blood on them hundreds of thousands of times.

GIVE ME A GOLDEN ANY DAY.

But i definitly dont want to see the breed banned or killed just beause they are pitties. I think california is retarded but i do think that that there should be certian limitations.... but definitly not death to all pits. I do believe that the majority of pits should be Neutered and spayed and if not you should be taken to jail or pay a huge fine. Most pits are aggressive because they have their sex characteristics, and because of poor training, and then blood line.

ALSO not trying to be an butthole but look at the majority of people that own pitties and give them a bad NAME! look at what and who they are. They are gang bangers or thugs, or big dudes and they have their pittie in chains and spikes.....(so they can make up for whatever male enchancement that THEY AS A MAN LACK....)

The other thing is most pitties dont get spayed or neutered because their owners are stupid and don't believe their "manhood" should be taken away...... so every single shelter has a ton of pittie mixes they cant get rid of... and wont claim they're pittie mixes so they will have a better chance of being adopted and so peoples home owners insurance wont go up. The other thing is if you get a dog spayed or neutered it greatly reduces their chance for Uteren cancer,+and a nasty infectiong (a stump pyomethra), + breast cancer, +prostate cancer, + testicle cancer by 80%

there has to be a reason why if you have an aggressive blood line type of dog your insurance goes up to 100,000 dollars or you get cancelled, they wouldn't put a breed on the list if there was just a few random attacks..... think about it.

CHOW,
American Pit Bull Terrier
American Bulldog
Doberman Pinscher
Rottweiler
German Shepherd
Tosa Inu
American Staffordshire Terrier
Bull Terrier
Staffordshire Terrier
Staffordshire Bull Terrier
Mastiff
Bullmastiff
Presa Canario
Cane Corso

Now dont get me wrong. I want a rottie, i want a dobie, i want a bullmastiff and a mastiff, and they are all on that list. I'm not saying they can't be sweet, but you have to watch out for them.

like i said i don't want anyone to think i'm saying ill of these dogs as i wont a few of them, but for someone to compare a golden to a pit in terms or temperment is asking for a debate.



sorry but i have strong opinions on this matter. I felt this should be in the serious discussion board instead of the chit chat post as it had nothing to do with what type of dog he should get.

[cypherkk]

Have to agree with you on the Golden. Theres no way it should be in the same line as poodles and shepards. While its a big dog and has a big bite, I don't evey think I've seen a golden attack anyone it wasn't provoked to. Bearing in mind no major issues like rabbies and such.

I mean a shepard has been bread specifically to protect. As a guard and as an attack dog. wonderfull animals but if it feels you are attacking its owner I'd fear a shepard faster than a golden though both are a respectable loyal breed.

Golden's are raised naturally to hunt. With that comes a few agressive tendencies But not nearly as much as guard breeds.

The pointy nose dogs with a sharp lower jaw line are naturally more agressive. Instinctively they were bread to "snap". Most are that way to to some form of ground animal annihilation breeding.

Something like a rotweiler or a golden retirever is more of a clamp jaw. They grab on to something in order to drag it back. Thats also why they are bigger, for large strength carrying things.

However, I would probably put The golden into the same general catagory as a pit. Like you said, the people that own them tend to be degenerates and train the dog to be especially agressive. Also, though, there may be more of a aggressive nature to the pit since it was used primarily in dog fights for a great many decades.

the worst of all though tend to be rat dogs, like the pomeranian and the chiwawa or chulupa whatever that thing is. Those are aggressive breed dogs, luckilly thier bark is usaully worse than thier bite.

[Allia22]

My mom's friend had a chihuahua. Every time she'd go over there, the dog would bark like crazy, run underneath a chair or something, and promptly make a puddle. Then resume its annoying barking...

[djbomberto]

i look at it this way, Pitbulls are like people. If you raise them to hate, then there going to hate. If you raise them to love they will love. I hate when people say their Genenic's are to hate. Bullshit. honestly so people are Born to hate and kill? thats how i see pitbulls.

[kornkitten42]

My mom's friend had a chihuahua. Every time she'd go over there, the dog would bark like crazy, run underneath a chair or something, and promptly make a puddle. Then resume its annoying barking...

hahahah now .... i would put chihuahua's in the class with pitties j/p those suckers can be mean as fudge with a NAPOLEON COMPLEX....
good god little man syndrome. Those little shits are evil and are "punt" dogs..... (because i want to punt them like a football....)

[kornkitten42]

i look at it this way, Pitbulls are like people. If you raise them to hate, then there going to hate. If you raise them to love they will love. I hate when people say their Genenic's are to hate. Bullshit. honestly so people are Born to hate and kill? thats how i see pitbulls.

ok... to put this into perspective. i'll use this little analogy.

Take a look at a tiger. You can rear a tiger cub from birth, take it away from it's mother the instant it was born. you bottle feed it and you rear it to all the nutrient standards it needs to survive. You train it to do everything you want it to and discpline when ness. but it will ALWAYS have it's NATURAL insticts to hunt. Sorry but no matter how much you love and care for that tiger... one day it will grow up, and possibly mistake you, someone else or another pet as prey or as a threat.... you can take the cat out of the jungle but you can't take the jungle out of the cat

but that's just showing the actual instinct part .

just the first example that came off the top of my head......


dog are different, and they have been domesticated for a long time. But you also have to remember that pit bulls are also trained to fight and are uber agressive, how long has it been since pit fights were banned? Not long enough and they still go on today. Not enough time to have that instinct die.

[djbomberto]

i look at it this way, Pitbulls are like people. If you raise them to hate, then there going to hate. If you raise them to love they will love. I hate when people say their Genenic's are to hate. Bullshit. honestly so people are Born to hate and kill? thats how i see pitbulls.

ok... to put this into perspective. i'll use this little analogy.

Take a look at a tiger. You can rear a tiger cub from birth, take it away from it's mother the instant it was born. you bottle feed it and you rear it to all the nutrient standards it needs to survive. You train it to do everything you want it to and discpline when ness. but it will ALWAYS have it's NATURAL insticts to hunt. Sorry but no matter how much you love and care for that tiger... one day it will grow up, and possibly mistake you, someone else or another pet as prey or as a threat.... you can take the cat out of the jungle but you can't take the jungle out of the cat

but that's just showing the actual instinct part .

just the first example that came off the top of my head......


dog are different, and they have been domesticated for a long time. But you also have to remember that pit bulls are also trained to fight and are uber agressive, how long has it been since pit fights were banned? Not long enough and they still go on today. Not enough time to have that instinct die.

okay from your quote here, On how there Trained to fight, and be uber aggressive..... so were Bulldogs............They used to fight Bulls hence Bulldog? and when you look at a bulldog, they look lazy as hell.


now you said you can't train the wild out of them well here is a good example

"You take a wild horse out straight out of the wild, train them, And they can turn out to be better animals compared to farm raised horses". Edited March 14, 2007 by djbomberto

[kornkitten42]

"You take a wild horse out straight out of the wild, train them, And they can turn out to be better animals compared to farm raised horses".

yes you can brake and train a wild mustang/ horse... but it will always be wild. It will always be more wild mustang than a normal horse, they can be very jumpy as well. i have friends who professionally break and train them, and have had many wild mustangs run me into fences and wall and trees in order to get me off in the process of trying ot break them.

as for your bulldog comment. yes Bulldogs can be very aggressive too... their species should have died out long ago do to the fact that normally THEY CAN'T BREED... they have to be artificially insiminated inorder to carry and bulldogs are lazy but i've also seen very nasty bulldogs too.... wouldn't own that genetic mess up if someone paid me. They have short pallets which means they inhale their emisis and die on it.( they inhale their vomit and it aspirates into their lungs....) they have breathing problems due to their smooshed in snout.

[rendevousINreno]

As far as their temperament, I was not lying my frinds. It is an ACTUAL FACT that the American Pit Bull Terrier is has a better Temperament (based on percentage) than Golden Retrievers, German Shepards, and a whole lot of other dogs.

I invite everyone to scroll throgh the list, off of ATTS (American Temperament Test Society) and look at the percentages. Notice that the American Pit Bull Terrier is 84.1%, The German Shepard is 83.3% and the Golden Retriever is 83.8%. So I was not joking and I was not making it up. Have you be it, its a small percentage, but the tests are real and they are factual. With that said, I love all dogs, and all animals. I just PREFER Pit bulls because they are some of the best dogs out there....if handled correctly. But this goes for all dogs. You could train a dalmation to be mean and aggressive and they could end up down that road if "left on a chain in the back yard". It simply goes for ANY dog. I agree with you on how the image is bad for pits because they are seen with Gangbangers, and thugs, etc. But let me remind you that in the 80's and then in the 90's....Rottweilers and Doberman Pinchers were the "breed of choice" for this "group" of people; gangs and thugs. It eventually died off and they moved to Pit Bulls....they will eventually move on to another breed...which in turn will give that breed a bad rap.

About the "taking the "wild" aggression out of Pit Bulls" well its simple. Pit Bulls, along with many other dogs are NATURALYY dog aggressive. Actually...alot of dogs are dog agressive...its only natural. With that said...there is a difference between dog agression and agression towards humans. If you do your studying...or if you look into it, you will find that pit bulls (back whhen they were being faught, 30's and 40's) were fantastic family pets. The point here is that IF THEY SHOWED ANY SIGN OF HUMAN AGGRESSION they would be immediately be put to sleep. Why? Cause they were family pets. This breed SHOULDNT have aggression towards people, and that is still true to today. So when you say, "pits bulls will always be uber aggressive" i hope you dont mean that in a sense towards humans. Casue that was never the case..as I have clearly stated. Again, if you dont believe me...go ahead and read into it. You thought I was wrong about temperament, but it ends up I was right. I know what Im saying when it comes to pitbulls believe me

Here is a link of the temperment ratings for through the ATTS:

http://www.atts.org/stats1.html

It is in alphabetical order. Just click next to see everything. Hmmmm, how interesting, Pitt Bulls rate higher in temperment then Chiuauas, Cocker Spaniels, Dalmations, Great Danes, Greyhounds, maltese, schnauzers, etc. How can this be...The News Said that they are....Fuck the News.

[kornkitten42]

well to bad your poll is SKEWED.........

First off... this test for temperment is neither "accurate" and "true". The reason i say this is because look at the totals of the dogs in each test group......

2 here, 563 here, 8 there.... Yeah... TAKEN STRAIGHT OFF THE WEBSITE....

TESTED PASSED FAILED PERCENTAGE
AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER 542 456 86 84.1%

AMERICAN WATER SPANIEL 6 5 1 83.3%

GOLDEN RETRIEVER 687 576 111 83.8%

ESTRELA MOUNTAIN DOG 1 1 0 100.0%

ROTTWEILER 4744 3,923 821 82.7%


If they wanted an ACCURATE test they should have the same number of CONTROL subjects for each breed.

You can find as many of a breed and "test it all you want"

it' says it's an 8-12 min test... **********it should be the same length for EACH dog....***********

(dont these people know the damn scientific method?????)

Dogs must be at least 18 months old to enter this test. The test takes about eight to 12 minutes to complete. The dog is on a loose six-foot (6') lead. The handler is not allowed to talk to the dog, give commands, or give corrections.

Failure on any part of the test is recognized when a dog shows:

Unprovoked aggression
Panic without recovery
Strong avoidance - bullshit. - Golden retrievers DONT LIKE CONFLICT.... THEY ARE SUBMISSIVE... OF COURSE THEY WILL FUCKING RUN AWAY. so your temperment guidelines fail you if your dog is a poon...... YEAH great test....... and there for just because an animal doesn't want to be around another dog or person that makes them scared they are failed. my two dogs cower behind me if someone or something scares them. They in their whole lives have never bit ANYBODY/ dog for any reason they are like i said submissive and dont want to be put in that situation.

A schutzhund trained dog lunging at the stranger is allowed, but if an untrained Siberian husky does the same, it may fail. (your test also allows double standards.....)

When the dog is five feet from the assistant, the umbrella is opened. The handler may encourage the dog to investigate the umbrella only when asked to do so. (again... not all dogs will be tested the same)

Subtest 4: Gunshots
The handler stops at a designated marker with his/her back towards a well hidden assistant. The assistant fires three shots using a .22 caliber starter pistol (SHOT-PAUSE-SHOT-SHOT).
The purpose of this subtest is to measure the dog's recovery response to a sudden noise.

YEAH.. A DOG THAT'S NOT AFRAID OF GUNSHOTS... (unless the dog has been acclimated to hunting or guns... OF COURSE it will be scared of loud banging noises......

oh wait.. pits could be used to it......... nm.

and it also says that it only uses spayed/ neutered dogs in giving out certificates and such......... another skewed part as most dogs (especially pits are more aggressive with their sexual organs intact.......)

please find me a real study.

btw... this is a volunteer certificate testing site, to get a certificate saying your dog is great and it's in like michigan or minnasota or some midwest state........ you pay 25 bucks to get this "achievement", such a great study Edited March 14, 2007 by kornkitten42

[Allia22]

Once again, just passing through because this is one of the debate topics that doesn't make me want to throw heavy objects at people if I don't agree with what they're saying

ANY dog can just kinda snap. Case in point: I was coming home from a sleepover many years ago. Walked into my house, stepped over our old samoyed with arthritic paws and kept going, didn't think a thing of it. My friend's mom followed me in for a chat with my mom, and brought her 4 year old son in with her. She must not have seen our dog sleeping (don't know how one could miss him, he was very overweight) and gave her kid a push when he stopped. Well, he ended up stepping on our dog, he woke up to strangers in his house, and snapped the kid in the bridge of the nose, resulting in us having to put our dog to sleep because our homeowner's insurance dropped us just because the dog was still alive. Mind you that dog NEVER showed signs of violent behavior prior to this, and that he was bred for being a show dog but his fur was too curly, so there he was at the Pet Parade at the mall, we got him when he was young and raised him through the puppy years ourselves. I highly doubt samoyeds are on any sort of menacing breed list, but stuff happens.

And from what I learned in school - Get multiple, cited sources to back your opinions Story numbah 2:

When Dude (name of 1st samoyed ) was still alive, we went to this samoyed rescue web site and got another dog, this one named Juneau. Big noisy, smelly teddy bear, reminds me of Appa from The Avatar. When he's not laying on the floor whining I even like him a little. We were forced to put Dude to sleep, and through a long series of events, my mom decides to get another dog off of the web site. She picks one with floppy ears which we rename Joe. He's not even a samoyed, he's just a white border collie which people don't seem to like. This dog... ugh. He fits the description of the dog that was just left outside on the chain. He growls and snaps at our cats which makes Mama (me) come running and yelling "GO TO YOUR ROOM!!!" which he eventually does. He growls at us and gets the water bottle... Very submissive, if I yell at him he just cowers which makes me wonder if I'm being too hard.
Now again, I don't know if border collies are on any "Dangerous Dog" lists, but sometimes I swear this particular dog should be on it.

[kornkitten42]

I don't want to throw heavy objects at anybody.

I think we're going ot have to agree to disagree because golden retrievers are one of the BEST breeds to own. They are one of the most recognized breeds (due to positive influences...not negative ones..) They are dumb (thick skulled sometimes) but they can also be super super super smart., but they love you with their whole heart. *** side note.. that's why they are used as autism awareness dogs, and seeing eye dogs and such, where pits definitly arn't usually used as service dogs*****

This whole debate happened because i believe he falsified his information.
i can put lots of links and back my claims up that pits are more aggressive and tempermental than goldens.
from homeowners insurances (which i have allready put up), to lists of dogs that they are trying to ban in the us, dogs that arent' allowed in apartment complexes and the number one dog that has the highest police reports and euthanasia reports due to attacks.........


so we'll agree to disagree, as i like pit bulls, i think they are gorgeous (and their ears should NEVER be cropped... they look so damn cute with floppy ears) but to say they have a better temperment than a golden i think is preposterous. Edited March 14, 2007 by kornkitten42

[james]

Most aggressive dog: chihuahua
Dog most likely to have psychological problems/bite: cocker spaniel

I hate showing houses or visiting FSBOs with chihuahuas. They bark incessantly and scuff up my shoes with bite/scratch marks. But if I'm ever bitten, it's by a cocker spaniel. Kind of a sneak up behind you and latch on to your leg bite. Turn around, and they're two feet away from you with a "wtf are you looking at" look on their face.

We have quite a few white trash pit bull lovers around here. That's NOT saying that all or even a majority of pit owners are trash. But, the trash around here seems to love a pit bull tied to a concrete block as a yard ornament. Several have been put down in the last six months for escaping their yards and nearly killing... wait for it... HORSES.

[rendevousINreno]

"If they wanted an ACCURATE test they should have the same number of CONTROL subjects for each breed.

You can find as many of a breed and "test it all you want"

it' says it's an 8-12 min test... **********it should be the same length for EACH dog....***********

(dont these people know the damn scientific method?????)

Dogs must be at least 18 months old to enter this test. The test takes about eight to 12 minutes to complete. The dog is on a loose six-foot (6') lead. The handler is not allowed to talk to the dog, give commands, or give corrections.

Failure on any part of the test is recognized when a dog shows:

Unprovoked aggression
Panic without recovery
Strong avoidance - bullshit. - Golden retrievers DONT LIKE CONFLICT.... THEY ARE SUBMISSIVE... OF COURSE THEY WILL FUCKING RUN AWAY. so your temperment guidelines fail you if your dog is a poon...... YEAH great test....... and there for just because an animal doesn't want to be around another dog or person that makes them scared they are failed. my two dogs cower behind me if someone or something scares them. They in their whole lives have never bit ANYBODY/ dog for any reason they are like i said submissive and dont want to be put in that situation.

A schutzhund trained dog lunging at the stranger is allowed, but if an untrained Siberian husky does the same, it may fail. (your test also allows double standards.....)

When the dog is five feet from the assistant, the umbrella is opened. The handler may encourage the dog to investigate the umbrella only when asked to do so. (again... not all dogs will be tested the same)

Subtest 4: Gunshots
The handler stops at a designated marker with his/her back towards a well hidden assistant. The assistant fires three shots using a .22 caliber starter pistol (SHOT-PAUSE-SHOT-SHOT).
The purpose of this subtest is to measure the dog's recovery response to a sudden noise.

YEAH.. A DOG THAT'S NOT AFRAID OF GUNSHOTS... (unless the dog has been acclimated to hunting or guns... OF COURSE it will be scared of loud banging noises......

oh wait.. pits could be used to it......... nm.

and it also says that it only uses spayed/ neutered dogs in giving out certificates and such......... another skewed part as most dogs (especially pits are more aggressive with their sexual organs intact.......)

please find me a real study.

btw... this is a volunteer certificate testing site, to get a certificate saying your dog is great and it's in like michigan or minnasota or some midwest state........ you pay 25 bucks to get this "achievement", such a great study"


KittyKat...you should read more carefully. Every test, is based on the breed standard. Of course the golden retreiver is gonna behave differently than a pit, than a chiuaua, than a ocker, than a polar bear...Each dog has a set of standards that are clearly defined. These standards have been here for several years set by AKC, UKC, etc. Each dogs rating is based on how the dog SHOULD react or not react based on what the breed standard says. So it is impossible to grade each dog on the same standards. Im assuming your saying "oops" now?

Also they dont have the same number of dogs for each breed, becasuse all of these dogs are BROUGHT IN by individuals. They simply provide the temperment service. Its not like they call out for audtions and take in 12 dobermans, 12 dalmations, 12 goldens, etc and test them each identical to the other for the same exact time. No. Each dog is different based on its breed just as humans. Some humans are scared of heights...some arent. Some are scared of bugs, some arent. This works for dogs...some dogs ARE SUPPOSED to act a certain way based on what the definition of their breed stanadrd is...some dogs arent. Which makes this test actually a VERY good statistical reference. For example...from the quote above..."panic without recovery" section...obviousle a pit and a golden will behave differently. Not all dogs are the same. But the Golden will get scored on what its specifcally supposed to do, just as a pit will be graded. Not graded against each other, but graded based on guidelines and definitions. If the golden retriver does not do well in that test because it shys away from a FRIENDLY encounter/ stranger, than its temperment score will OBVIOUSLY be affected...right? Since your the golden retriver hsitorian, how about I ask you Kitty.....nvm. Just as you said..im not trying to start shit here...neither are you. But atleast everything I say is true. Atleast everything I say is being backed up. No hard feelings?

With that said, anyone wanna see picsture of my Pit?

[james]

Post em up.

[LilTank13]

Actually Kornkitten, it would seem that your results are skewed. As they tested far more rotts and goldens, this would lead for more of a chance for these dogs to prove themselves as not being aggressive. A larger sample size should yeild more favorable results, right? A larger sample size should be more representative of the population, correct? If anyone should look at the test as flawed, it should be the pro pit bull people.

As far as temperment, a true pit bull should have little to absolutely no human aggressiveness. Seeing as true pit bulls were, indeed, bred to fight, they were also bred to be very owner and NON OWNER friendly. A master or opponent in the pit would have to break the dogs during certain instances called "turning", and if the dog attacked its owner or the owner of the other dog, it was shot on the spot. Thus leading to dogs with very little, if any human aggression.

Any terrier will have a ridiculous prey drive. They are terriers. They were bred as hunting dogs in England. They would chase a multitude of animals into the earth, hence the "terra" in their name. Pit bulls actually started as very large dogs, bred from Greece, then trickled over to the Anglo-Saxon area. These dogs were originally used as protection, but then became used as sporting dogs. All bulldogs started this way. Pit bulls were eventually bred with smaller, more agile terriers, thus becoming pit bull terriers. The dog aggressiveness was still there, the prey drive high, and agility increased. However, the human aggressiveness was bred out of them.

It is very easy to find labs and goldens that are both human and dog aggressive. My buddy just put down a $1200 yellow lab because it attacked his MOTHER. A close family friend had a golden that was very human aggressive. Any dog can be aggressive. I have come across many dogs that become VERY defensive upon approaching their food dish. I have had complete strangers take my pits food dish away from him with nary a look. Does this mean that all pits are angels? No. In the wrong hands, any, I mean any dog can be dangerous. Our last dog was a lhasa apso mix we had to put down for repeatedly attacking us-it was a 16lb dog and I was frightened by it. Our 65 lb pit doesn't frighten me at all.

It seems as though the media has brainwashed a multitude of people, as it always does. I encourage anyone to do searches for common uses for working pits. You will find results such as police dogs, search and rescue dogs, nursing home and hospital rehab dogs, and the list goes on. And oh yeah, for every attack of a pit on a human, I can give you 100 attacks of a human on a pit.

[LilTank13]

And just because I happen to bodybuild/powerlift, have a small spiked collar for Champ, and tend to excersize him by walking with him, am I a thug or white trash? I will agree that yes, there are a multitude of people that shouldn't own pits. There are a multitude of people that shouldn't own dogs in general. There are a multitude of people that shouldn't be parents. But there are people who continue to these things regardless of this point. To say that most people that own pits are thugs, drug dealers, gang bangers, or people that have to make up for certain parts of the anatomy that may be lacking, I BEG you to check out pitbulltalk.com... Edited March 15, 2007 by LilTank13

[djbomberto]

i look at it as people, if there brought up wrong then they will come up that way, if their brought right then they'll be okay. no need for 5480743-52 million paragrahs to explain. just a few lines



POST YOUR PICS!

[kornkitten42]

well whatever i'm not going to argue with you anymore. Because i don't care. All i know is that pit bulls and bulldogs are more agressive than a golden. Say all that you want but i've worked with most EVERY breed as a vet tech and by my personal experience i've had more pits and such breeds try to eat my face than a golden. Yes there are other mean dogs chihuahua's, cocker spaniels can be quite the biters, but all i am saying is goldens are highly unaggressive.

Hell i've had 3 calls on pit bull attacks at work in the last 4 days, but no other breeds of animals though. ......... but i have no proof to actually show you, it just made me "giggle" when i thought of this thread..


and no. I believe that if you are going tp post up a scientifically accurate poll, that you can accurately get your information from it, then said study should be a controlled amount.. like 12 or 24... or 50 if each breed, all tested the exact same way. that's the best way to be scientifically accurate. thats all... (again scientific method) or hell how about Neutered control verses a NON neutered control which would make the test even better and far more accurate.

as for the skewed results... so they test one dog (as per my example above) and they get a 100% and now compared to all the other test groups have 100% of a great temperment...YEAH.... great unskewed test.... i wasn't saying as for which side... i was just saying skewed results.....

As for my evidence.... i dont' see where goldens are banned from peoples home owners/ rental insurances/ and apartment buildings. I also dont see where they are trying to make the golden breed banned and extinct anywhere.I also wonder how the goldens got such a great reputation as their domesticated cousins got ripped off and are now screwed?


http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/insurance/bad-dog-list1.asp



Table_1
Note: To print large tables and graphs users may have to change their printer settings to landscape and use a small font size.


TABLE 1. Dog breeds and crossbreeds* involved in dog-bite-related fatalities, by 2-year period -- United States, 1979-1996 +
================================================================================
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=
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Category 1979-1980 1981-1982 1983-1984 1985-1986 1987-1988 1989-1990 1991-1992 1993-1994 1995-1996 Total
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Breed
"Pit bull" 2 5 10 9 12 8 6 5 3 60
Rottweiler 0 0 1 1 3 1 3 10 10 29
German shepherd 2 1 5 1 1 5 2 0 2 19
"Husky" 2 1 2 2 0 2 2 1 2 14
Alaskan malamute 2 0 3 1 0 2 3 1 0 12
Doberman Pinscher 0 1 0 2 2 2 1 0 0 8
Chow Chow 0 1 0 0 0 2 3 0 2 8
Great Dane 3 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 6
St. Bernard 1 2 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 4
Akita 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 2 0 4

Crossbreed
Wolf hybrid 0 1 1 2 1 4 1 2 2 14
German shepherd 0 2 0 2 2 2 0 1 2 11
"Pit bull" 0 1 0 3 2 & 3 1 1 0 10 &
"Husky" 0 1 1 2 1 1 0 0 0 6
Alaskan malamute 0 0 0 0 0 2 1 0 0 3
Rottweiler 0 0 0 0 1 & 1 0 1 1 3 &
Chow Chow 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 3
No. incidents for which breed known 10 20 27 24 22 35 24 25 22 199
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Data shown only for breeds and crossbreeds involved in four or more fatalities. Each breed contributing to the crossbreed is counted only once.
+ For 1979-1994, data obtained from the Humane Society of the United States registry, NEXIS database accounts, and death certificates.
& One fatality also involved a single breed.
================================================================================
================================================================================
=
========


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http://www.cdc.gov/mmwR/preview/mmwrhtml/00047723.htm FROM the center of disease control hrm... pits from 1975-1996 seemed to have the most attacks ...... (the chart if it gets messed up can be seen on the cdc page above>) (i'll see if ican't find a newer chart but HRM... where are the goldens?!?!)


another chart through 98 pits still at the top.... of the attack xchart again goldens not included...http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf

and this one above includes "retrievers" no specific breed and it said in a latter part that to give you boys a heads up as to this part DOES include goldens retrievers that in a certian time period of a different test that goldens killed 5 people. Where as pit bulls and Rotties accounted for 67 % of all dog fatalites and they were DEFINITLY not 60% of all dogs in the us.


i can keep hammering you with this. but my point is made to my satisfaction. Your dogs however cute and sweet and humble are genetically more aggressive than goldens if that werent' the case then how could i prove that your animal is the dog with the highest attack in the us and goldens ARENT'?

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/Dog%20Attacks%20...6%20Clifton.pdf JUST ONE MORE that was done from 1982-2006 more recent and piit bull attacks are in the 1000's where as goldens have 6 9and this was one the humane society's web site

sp please have fun trying to foil ALLL these charts, and ALL the homeowners fees and The banned lists please be my guest as i said before

i love pits they can be great dogs. I have several friends who own them. (and some are the sterotypical owners others are not....) but to say that they have better temperment than a golden has just been disproved OVER AND OVER AND OVER again.

as for you having a dog named champ "tank"..... is he neutered? If he isn't then yes i do think you are like the majority of other owners that should be educated on the facts of aggressive dogs and why their sexual organs make them more likely to attack than non agressive dogs..

if YOU DO HAVE HIM neutered then hooray for you and i'm glad you are a responsible pet owner and i wish that more of the pit bull owners and people in the world would be like you.
As for your look i'm saying it's sterotypical and that type of person usually has a pit instead of say a "wimpy" dog like a lab or dachshund or something.

as for the temperment study. i dont agree with it, i didn't see the facts about it's up the breed standard.. whatever. you just said it but no proof. I dont care and i'll give you the benifit of the doubt. But whatever. everything i am saying is true as well, including my original posts about the breed ban list, the homeowners insurance and the shelter numbers...So please tell me where i've gotten my facts incorrect and didn't have anything to back them up? besides your "test" nothing you have said has been backed up by any sort of proof of fact. SO whatever. I'M DONE... i've proved my point to a tee and drove the nail home.



I never claimed to be ANY breed historian, just my experiences. I like all dogs INCLUDING PITS so "rendy" (since we're using pet names now ahahah get it? j/p
how you like them apples


i have two goldens well 1 and 1/2 (mix) both are spayed and neutered. i also have 5 cats. I love all animals. and i'll post pics later on afte ri see 300... got to go.
peace movie starts in 10!


no more arguments from me just pictures
peace Edited March 15, 2007 by kornkitten42

[LilTank13]

Well, I guess, as you are the topic starter, you do have the right to not argue anymore. I will give you the fact the bully breeds are more DOG aggressive. As I said a TRUE pit bull, and the media's PIT BULL are two VASTLY different dogs. The media's pit bull is anything with a large blocky head, and a wide bone structure. A true pit weighs between 25-60 lbs, has very distinctive bone structure at the rear, and I could go on and on, but it's beating a dead horse.

"as for the skewed results... so they test one dog (as per my example above) and they get a 100% and now compared to all the other test groups have 100% of a great temperment...YEAH.... great unskewed test.... i wasn't saying as for which side... i was just saying skewed results....."

Ok, pits didn't get a 100%. In fact, they only edged out the goldens by .3%. While I will agree with you again, goldens can be excellent dogs, so can pits. Irresponsible owners, unfortunately, don't get the blame. The dogs do. And as for your "charts", having a "pit bull" could mean any kind of bully looking dog. A true pit bull is an APBT. There is a huge difference between "pit bull" and APBT, Am Staff, Bull dog, English Bulldogge... Again, I could keep going... True pits aren't human aggressive-stereotyped media pits are... Furthermore, your charts, while perhaps unintentionally, may be just as biased as the scientific ATTS. Your sources are coming from dog discriminators. Dogbitelaw.com, homeowners insurance, work with the people trying to enforce BSL. Homeowners insurance is possible to attain if you own these dogs. Obviously, I wouldn't have one if it wasn't. Oh, and not to nitpick, but "skewed" implies a distinct distribution of a data set. I'm sure you meant "biased".

As for the ATTS not being a legitimate source, how can you say your sources are? I would think that the ATTS, which is used very extensively, would be considered legitimate, wheter you agree with it or not. "I'M DONE... i've proved my point to a tee and drove the nail home." So you listed two sources and personal experience, you've won the argument with only one of my retorts? lol!

I ask you to visit this link, and tell me your results. http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html
Most people really don't know what a pit truley is. I find it humerous that when I took my pit to the vet to get neutered, I had the vet himself, as well as three vet techs come up to me, and tell me of previous pits and pit mixes they have had, and how well their dogs have done with their kids and thier families.

About the whole scientific method comment, I am an integrated science major, so I am quite familiar with experiments and scientific studies. I will agree with you that an equal number of dogs would work, however, it isn't necessary to prove the point. If you look at the data statistically, pits have a worse chance of being shown as "unsound" than goldens or rotts, due to the fact there are less of them. I will agree that an altered/unaltered portion to the test would be nice.

And as far as temperment goes, it doesn't necessarily mean is nicer around people. The ATTS is used to show how likely a dog is to bite given certain circumstances. It shows how "stable" the dog is versus how "nice" the dog is.

As for my "stereotypical" look, that is what the media has done to these dogs. It is practically the same thing as saying all blacks will mug you, all hispanics drive low riders, and all whites hate everyone. We know it is simply not true. And by no means am I white trash. I take great offense to that, and just shows how well some people can argue points . I know you never claimed to be a breed historian. If you were, you would know Thomas Jefferson owned a pit, as well as Rachel Ray and many other "wholesome" celebrities. You would be suprised at the number of people who are proud pit owners (not dog fighters) that look NOTHING like the stereotype. As far as TRUE pit owners, I am the minority by a long shot. My dog being named champ has nothing to do with his breed. He is a year old, and was pre named. I think that my dog would be considered a "cur", (not fight worthy). He is absolutely not aggressive. Following this post, I will put up some pics.

While I will agree that no one will change anyone's view on this topic, there are a few dogs that make a reflection on the breed, regardless of the breed. However, I feel that the grossly uneducated public and media contribute more to the pit's negative image than what should be allowed. Goldens are very recognizable, and as you can probably see by the link I gave, pits really aren't. As previously stated, my dog is neutered, and I have owned a "girly", "wussy", "furry" dog-a lhasa apso. And hated it. I like a very atheletic, trainable, loyal, loving dog with immense personality, which is why I choose a dog that was correct for me-a pit. I by no means wish any hard feelings to anyone, as this is what hookah is designed to do-propagate good conversation. Speeking of hookah, I hear big red calling my name...

[kornkitten42]

Well, I guess, as you are the topic starter, you do have the right to not argue anymore. I will give you the fact the bully breeds are more DOG aggressive. As I said a TRUE pit bull, and the media's PIT BULL are two VASTLY different dogs. The media's pit bull is anything with a large blocky head, and a wide bone structure. A true pit weighs between 25-60 lbs, has very distinctive bone structure at the rear, and I could go on and on, but it's beating a dead horse.

"as for the skewed results... so they test one dog (as per my example above) and they get a 100% and now compared to all the other test groups have 100% of a great temperment...YEAH.... great unskewed test.... i wasn't saying as for which side... i was just saying skewed results....."

Ok, pits didn't get a 100%. In fact, they only edged out the goldens by .3%. While I will agree with you again, goldens can be excellent dogs, so can pits. Irresponsible owners, unfortunately, don't get the blame. The dogs do. And as for your "charts", having a "pit bull" could mean any kind of bully looking dog. A true pit bull is an APBT. There is a huge difference between "pit bull" and APBT, Am Staff, Bull dog, English Bulldogge... Again, I could keep going... True pits aren't human aggressive-stereotyped media pits are... Furthermore, your charts, while perhaps unintentionally, may be just as biased as the scientific ATTS. Your sources are coming from dog discriminators. Dogbitelaw.com, homeowners insurance, work with the people trying to enforce BSL. Homeowners insurance is possible to attain if you own these dogs. Obviously, I wouldn't have one if it wasn't. Oh, and not to nitpick, but "skewed" implies a distinct distribution of a data set. I'm sure you meant "biased".

As for the ATTS not being a legitimate source, how can you say your sources are? I would think that the ATTS, which is used very extensively, would be considered legitimate, wheter you agree with it or not. "I'M DONE... i've proved my point to a tee and drove the nail home." So you listed two sources and personal experience, you've won the argument with only one of my retorts? lol!

I ask you to visit this link, and tell me your results. http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html
Most people really don't know what a pit truley is. I find it humerous that when I took my pit to the vet to get neutered, I had the vet himself, as well as three vet techs come up to me, and tell me of previous pits and pit mixes they have had, and how well their dogs have done with their kids and thier families.

About the whole scientific method comment, I am an integrated science major, so I am quite familiar with experiments and scientific studies. I will agree with you that an equal number of dogs would work, however, it isn't necessary to prove the point. If you look at the data statistically, pits have a worse chance of being shown as "unsound" than goldens or rotts, due to the fact there are less of them. I will agree that an altered/unaltered portion to the test would be nice.

And as far as temperment goes, it doesn't necessarily mean is nicer around people. The ATTS is used to show how likely a dog is to bite given certain circumstances. It shows how "stable" the dog is versus how "nice" the dog is.

As for my "stereotypical" look, that is what the media has done to these dogs. It is practically the same thing as saying all blacks will mug you, all hispanics drive low riders, and all whites hate everyone. We know it is simply not true. And by no means am I white trash. I take great offense to that, and just shows how well some people can argue points . I know you never claimed to be a breed historian. If you were, you would know Thomas Jefferson owned a pit, as well as Rachel Ray and many other "wholesome" celebrities. You would be suprised at the number of people who are proud pit owners (not dog fighters) that look NOTHING like the stereotype. As far as TRUE pit owners, I am the minority by a long shot. My dog being named champ has nothing to do with his breed. He is a year old, and was pre named. I think that my dog would be considered a "cur", (not fight worthy). He is absolutely not aggressive. Following this post, I will put up some pics.

While I will agree that no one will change anyone's view on this topic, there are a few dogs that make a reflection on the breed, regardless of the breed. However, I feel that the grossly uneducated public and media contribute more to the pit's negative image than what should be allowed. Goldens are very recognizable, and as you can probably see by the link I gave, pits really aren't. As previously stated, my dog is neutered, and I have owned a "girly", "wussy", "furry" dog-a lhasa apso. And hated it. I like a very atheletic, trainable, loyal, loving dog with immense personality, which is why I choose a dog that was correct for me-a pit. I by no means wish any hard feelings to anyone, as this is what hookah is designed to do-propagate good conversation. Speeking of hookah, I hear big red calling my name...

Tank..


I live in a huge white trash town where nothing but 40 miles is nothing but Hotie toity rich folks and then rednecks reside.. I did not intend to call you white trash if it came out that way i am sorry. Half of My family is nothing but white red neck trash and i hate that they as well own pitties and do what they do with them.

I love pit bulls as i have said before. I have known some of the best pit bulls and by pits i mean american pit bull....... I know the breed, i also know they are used for pig hunts and hunting as well (especially in north fl southern ga...). I never disputed what they did before we as a society that is now has made them become. Pits can be very loyal and protective and thats awesome. The only thing i was trying to get across was that i didn't see how a pit could have a better temperment than a golden. If i'm wrong then fine.

I believe that pit bulls are and could be great dogs with the proper training and LOTS AND LOTS of family love. just like any dog can. I believe that goldens if trained the same way as a pit has been portrayed, it would and could be just about as deadly (pits of course have a wider head and mouth so they have more bite per psi) but could be given the same wrap as a pit.

I am glad you are a responsible pet owner by getting him neutered and taking him to the vet. Like i said in my pervious post to you, that you are responsible and i wish that others were like you. I am not saying anything bad about champ. I'm sure he is a great dog. I ment nothing by his name. i have a dog named "jack" and a dog named "lulu" - ( i didn't pick her name she came with it.... )

As for pits in general i hope nothing bad happens to them. I'm sure they have gotten a bad rap for their sterotypical owners and the terrible things they did just like rotties and dobies did in the 70, 80ss and 90's.

I never said that pits got 100% i was saying other breeds were tested and only 1, 2, 3 ,4 were tested and got 100%. That is saying that of that breed, that breed infact has the best temperment when in truth, that might not be the case.

but. also i had more than just two sources. I also had information backed up by the humane society of north america who in other articals is very compassionate towards pitbulls and their plight and whom i see as unbiased because they are also trying to show pitbull awareness and are against ban laws....

i am smoking melon right now out of venom (aka the black momba) and it has been a very interesting debate. Sorry if my words offended you.

ps. please make sure that anyone who has a pit is protected against parvo as pitties and rots are the two most suseptible (sp) to this disease.

not arguing... lol just making sure my posts werent intented to offend

the test results from what i determined by failure vs sucess rate, were one in every 6.3 pits were failed and one in 6.1 of goldens were failed if i'm wrong please let me know. as for the test, yes i ment "biased" not skewed thank you for pointing that out. And i wish someone would do a test of multipule unaltered/ altered/ male/vs/female/ ect controls studies are done. that indeed would be a interesting study to see.

[Scheetz]

Going to have to disagree here. My old neighbor had a Golden. Bought it as a puppy and grew up in our neighborhood from day 1. It had a massive temper problem. Would attack any dog that was within 50 yards of it. And used to pull my neighbor down the street just to get a hold of another dog.

Now have goldens always been bad dogs, no. But they have been inbred to the point where they are starting to have bigger mental issues as well as physical. This only happens because breeders keep the blood line clean with the same dogs they have had over the past 30 years. Keep doing this and the mother is banging her great grand son. Congrats to those new owners, you just bought a mental handicapped dog that will give you thousands in medical bills.

[kornkitten42]

Going to have to disagree here. My old neighbor had a Golden. Bought it as a puppy and grew up in our neighborhood from day 1. It had a massive temper problem. Would attack any dog that was within 50 yards of it. And used to pull my neighbor down the street just to get a hold of another dog.

Now have goldens always been bad dogs, no. But they have been inbred to the point where they are starting to have bigger mental issues as well as physical. This only happens because breeders keep the blood line clean with the same dogs they have had over the past 30 years. Keep doing this and the mother is banging her great grand son. Congrats to those new owners, you just bought a mental handicapped dog that will give you thousands in medical bills.

i agree. I don't want to ever buy a pure breed dog. They because of selective breeding and incest and the inward forking of several bloodlines, pure breed dogs have multitudes of problems now, which is very sad.

couple examples -
king charles spaniels have terrible heart problems and horrible ears (and i mean needing to have surgery due to the fact that their ear infections cause so much damage) and have to be placed on enalapril and lasix to have a decent quality of life. (some not all but it is becoming a major problem)

Golden retrievers, german shepards, labs, ect have terrible problems with hip dysplasia.

great danes have a horrible time with thyroid issues

and so on and so forth.
I'm not saying that mix breeds aren't going to have their own issues but it is far less common in a mutt to have certian breed issues because of having mixed parents and in some cases the genes are recessive etc*

Yes i have a pure bred golden but i didn't buy her, my fiance's parents adopted her for him from a woman who couldn't keep her. and she is showing signs of hip dysplasia as well
my golden mix i got from a Stars (save the animals rescue society)

I'm not saying that i dont like pure bred dogs , as they are all beautiful.I just hate to see all the mutts out there in the world and someone paying 3000.00 for a "labradoodle" in a puppy mill pet store yuck.

btw it's sad that your neighbors golden is that way. it's sad to see any animal that way. If my dog ever bit me or someone in a viscious mannor i would have to think long and hard about putting it down. that's terrible and a difficult decision to do

[ladyeagle]

Hey, I think of myself as a good person, but hell if I dont snap sometimes! Dogs have personalities too! My Oldest brother has a English Bulldog, sweetest thing to humans, not so much to other dogs (their health problems are horrible too! and they are expensive!)... My other big bro has a PitBull, and he is the SWEETEST dog alive! Im always try'n to steal him! He so cute when he plays with my 15 lb. Bichon! Hes scared hes gunna squish him! and the pits always kissing on me and try'n to climb into my lap/ sleep pushed up to me in bed when he sleeps over! I have to say, Id LOVE to own a Pit I just wouldnt have to deal with not be'n able to find a place that allows pits to live... I hate when people group all dogs of a breeed 2gether... ive heard bad things about Bichons too, and my baby is such a sweetheart!

Rocky all wrapped up on x-mas!

Rocky smell'n the flowers!

Bossman with his chainsaw!

[rendevousINreno]

Here she is, yes I know, she is Gorgeous!

[attachment=187:IMGP0616_123.JPG]